7 ms·

I'd definitely welcome some thoughtful, unbiased commentary on Tibet. I'd like to be certain that this is it (and not, e.g., the work of a hack for hire). I hav

by dash2 6y ago

I'd definitely welcome some thoughtful, unbiased commentary on Tibet. I'd like to be certain that this is it (and not, e.g., the work of a hack for hire). I have to say that googling Michael Parenti does not fill me with encouragement, but I'll be happy to be corrected. I met some Tibetan exiles working in the market in Dalhousie in India, 20+ years ago. They had fled Tibet to seek freedom and opportunity. If the border guards had seen them, they would have been shot.[1] So, I am not a huge fan of Chinese control of Tibet. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nangpa_La_shooting_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nangpa_La_shooting_incident

ArtDev 6y ago
Their stories of escape are harrowing and tragic. You need to actually visit Tibet to see how brutal the occupation actually is. Once there were these drunk Chinese soldiers who stole this old Tibetans tractor and were doing broodies in the center of town. That was wild I wish I had it on video (though if I had would I be here today?).
- trasz 6y ago
  Thing is, "Psychologist and writer Colin Goldner[78] alleges that although human rights abuses carried out by the People's Liberation Army, especially during the Cultural Revolution, cannot be justified, the pronouncements of Tibetan exiles cannot be trusted, because "These are, if not totally invented out of thin air, as a rule hopelessly exaggerated and/or refer to no longer actual happenings." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Tibet#Verifiabilty_of_exile_pronouncements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Tibet#Verifiab...).
  - aspenmayer 6y ago
    We could know more with the cooperation of China in the TAR, but they won’t let foreign observers in. Later in the same Wikipedia article: > American sinologist Allen Carlson is of the opinion that it is nearly impossible, without substantial field research in Tibet, to verify the numerous allegations of violations advanced by China critics. He does, however, state, "my analysis of Beijing’s policies and practices has left me with the impression that the Chinese leadership has no reservations about using whatever means necessary to secure Chinese rule over Tibet." > According to Amnesty International "The Chinese authorities have turned down as “inconvenient” requests for visits to the TAR by several UN human rights experts."
    - trasz 6y ago
      That's very true. But this means we shouldn't blindly trust either of the sides.
      - josinalvo 6y ago
        Does it? Only one side is forbidding people to look at things for themselves. It seems better epistemological practice to suspect this side more
        trasz 6y ago
        Indeed. But we still shouldn't blindly trust the other.
        aspenmayer 6y ago
        We’re believing the victims of forced relocation and genocide at the hands of China. I’m open to your sources, since you’re so convinced of your side being the one deserving of trust.
        luckylion 6y ago
        > I’m open to your sources, since you’re so convinced of your side being the one deserving of trust. This is cheap. To say "we shouldn't blindly trust this side" doesn't mean "we should blindly trust that side" at all. It just means we shouldn't blindly trust this side. It may well be that we shouldn't trust either side, because both have reasons to lie.
        aspenmayer 6y ago
        Both sides could also be right. I do not have a stance, I am just saying what the Tibetan stance is. Why shouldn’t we believe that narrative? There could be good reasons either way, but I haven’t really seen any good sources in this thread. Perhaps you have some to share? I admit this is not my area of study.
- zeroimpl 6y ago
  Compared to the mass enslavement of Africans and genocide of indigenous people in the west, this sounds pretty tame. Modern Tibet is certainly flourishing. Perhaps the people who fled were the ones guilty of crimes mentioned in the article?
  - josinalvo 6y ago
    > Perhaps the people who fled were the ones guilty of crimes mentioned in the article? Yup. Lets trust the red terror system of justice (do note: I have a quote from Russia, so, there is an important caveat there. Still...) Martin Latsis, chief of the Ukrainian Cheka, stated in the newspaper Red Terror: We are not fighting against single individuals. We are exterminating the bourgeoisie as a class. Do not look in the file of incriminating evidence to see whether or not the accused rose up against the Soviets with arms or words. Ask him instead to which class he belongs, what is his background, his education, his profession. These are the questions that will determine the fate of the accused. That is the meaning and essence of the Red Terror.
    - trasz 6y ago
      The "red terror" certainly used to be the case few decades ago, but todays it's the USA that has the worlds largest percentage of population locked away in prisons and doing forced labor, not China.
      - aspenmayer 6y ago
        Forced labor is a form of slavery; it is yet to be abolished in America, and that is our collective shame as Americans. Is it considered wrong to force prisoners to perform labor in China?
      - trasz 6y ago
        I'm not sure, I _think_ it's still a thing in China. But since the percentage of incarcerated population is lower, it affects fewer people.
    - dang 6y ago
notahacker 6y ago
This certainly isn't unbiased commentary (obvious tells are the way easily-established facts such as the Tibetan government in exile having a democratic constitution are qualified with the 'reportedly' weasel word, whereas the author's assumptions about lamas motivations are to be understood as unvarnished fact, the frequent use of the 'reactionary' label and the way more emphasis is given to the Dalai Lama granting an audience to a Republican senator than the Cultural Revolution!). But I don't think the author is wrong to say 1950s Tibet was an impoverished and unequal feudal society. I also met quite a few Tibetan exiles in India. Those who had fled by spending their life savings to be guided across the Himalayan border had tales to tell of running out of food on the journey and eating snow, but no specific details of persecutions in China: they came because the Lama was in India. (I also met a Tibetan who arrived via a visa for overseas study who fully intended to return). But the risk of being shot was still a real one.

by dash2 6y ago

ArtDev 6y ago

Their stories of escape are harrowing and tragic. You need to actually visit Tibet to see how brutal the occupation actually is. Once there were these drunk Chinese soldiers who stole this old Tibetans tractor and were doing broodies in the center of town. That was wild I wish I had it on video (though if I had would I be here today?).

trasz 6y ago
Thing is, "Psychologist and writer Colin Goldner[78] alleges that although human rights abuses carried out by the People's Liberation Army, especially during the Cultural Revolution, cannot be justified, the pronouncements of Tibetan exiles cannot be trusted, because "These are, if not totally invented out of thin air, as a rule hopelessly exaggerated and/or refer to no longer actual happenings." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Tibet#Verifiabilty_of_exile_pronouncements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Tibet#Verifiab...).
- aspenmayer 6y ago
  We could know more with the cooperation of China in the TAR, but they won’t let foreign observers in. Later in the same Wikipedia article: > American sinologist Allen Carlson is of the opinion that it is nearly impossible, without substantial field research in Tibet, to verify the numerous allegations of violations advanced by China critics. He does, however, state, "my analysis of Beijing’s policies and practices has left me with the impression that the Chinese leadership has no reservations about using whatever means necessary to secure Chinese rule over Tibet." > According to Amnesty International "The Chinese authorities have turned down as “inconvenient” requests for visits to the TAR by several UN human rights experts."
  - trasz 6y ago
    That's very true. But this means we shouldn't blindly trust either of the sides.
    - josinalvo 6y ago
      Does it? Only one side is forbidding people to look at things for themselves. It seems better epistemological practice to suspect this side more
      - trasz 6y ago
        Indeed. But we still shouldn't blindly trust the other.
        aspenmayer 6y ago
        We’re believing the victims of forced relocation and genocide at the hands of China. I’m open to your sources, since you’re so convinced of your side being the one deserving of trust.
        luckylion 6y ago
        > I’m open to your sources, since you’re so convinced of your side being the one deserving of trust. This is cheap. To say "we shouldn't blindly trust this side" doesn't mean "we should blindly trust that side" at all. It just means we shouldn't blindly trust this side. It may well be that we shouldn't trust either side, because both have reasons to lie.
        aspenmayer 6y ago
        Both sides could also be right. I do not have a stance, I am just saying what the Tibetan stance is. Why shouldn’t we believe that narrative? There could be good reasons either way, but I haven’t really seen any good sources in this thread. Perhaps you have some to share? I admit this is not my area of study.
zeroimpl 6y ago
Compared to the mass enslavement of Africans and genocide of indigenous people in the west, this sounds pretty tame. Modern Tibet is certainly flourishing. Perhaps the people who fled were the ones guilty of crimes mentioned in the article?
- josinalvo 6y ago
  > Perhaps the people who fled were the ones guilty of crimes mentioned in the article? Yup. Lets trust the red terror system of justice (do note: I have a quote from Russia, so, there is an important caveat there. Still...) Martin Latsis, chief of the Ukrainian Cheka, stated in the newspaper Red Terror: We are not fighting against single individuals. We are exterminating the bourgeoisie as a class. Do not look in the file of incriminating evidence to see whether or not the accused rose up against the Soviets with arms or words. Ask him instead to which class he belongs, what is his background, his education, his profession. These are the questions that will determine the fate of the accused. That is the meaning and essence of the Red Terror.
  - trasz 6y ago
    The "red terror" certainly used to be the case few decades ago, but todays it's the USA that has the worlds largest percentage of population locked away in prisons and doing forced labor, not China.
    - aspenmayer 6y ago
      Forced labor is a form of slavery; it is yet to be abolished in America, and that is our collective shame as Americans. Is it considered wrong to force prisoners to perform labor in China?
    - trasz 6y ago
      I'm not sure, I _think_ it's still a thing in China. But since the percentage of incarcerated population is lower, it affects fewer people.
  - dang 6y ago

notahacker 6y ago

This certainly isn't unbiased commentary (obvious tells are the way easily-established facts such as the Tibetan government in exile having a democratic constitution are qualified with the 'reportedly' weasel word, whereas the author's assumptions about lamas motivations are to be understood as unvarnished fact, the frequent use of the 'reactionary' label and the way more emphasis is given to the Dalai Lama granting an audience to a Republican senator than the Cultural Revolution!). But I don't think the author is wrong to say 1950s Tibet was an impoverished and unequal feudal society. I also met quite a few Tibetan exiles in India. Those who had fled by spending their life savings to be guided across the Himalayan border had tales to tell of running out of food on the journey and eating snow, but no specific details of persecutions in China: they came because the Lama was in India. (I also met a Tibetan who arrived via a visa for overseas study who fully intended to return). But the risk of being shot was still a real one.