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I don't think the pressure on Apple is going to let up. Smart phones are no longer a tech toy and have become a literal part of government and commercial infras

I don't think the pressure on Apple is going to let up. Smart phones are no longer a tech toy and have become a literal part of government and commercial infrastructure. Apple's arbitrary power over the platform is pissing off and embarrassing governments in the COVID era. During COVID, governments around the world have been making major decisions based on mobility data from Apple and Google which shows trends of where people are visiting and what mode of transit they are using. The real-time mobility data from Apple and Google is far better than anything the government has itself. This is a big wake-up call to the governments that they have been basically supplanted by private companies. I'm sure no president or prime minister likes having to give a press conference where they have to say "According to Apple, we see good compliance with government regulations...." Yesterday, the UK announced it was abandoning its own COVID contract tracing app and moving to the Apple model because they couldn't figure out how to make iPhones wake up via bluetooth (because that's a private API only available to Apple). A major western government is facing huge public embarrassment in a public health crisis over what comes down to not having permission from Apple to use a specific API in an app. That's the kind of thing that pisses off politicians, regardless of whether or not you think the UK followed the best technical path. Combine all that with Apple now forcing companies to adopt their sign-in systems and payment methods in order to reach what is now part of the public infrastructure and Apple has created a situation where they've managed to piss off everyone across the political spectrum, from the hard-core free market people to the leftist public good people.

treebornfrog 6y ago
I don't agree that Apple should bend over backwards. IMO contact tracing opens up a new can of worms and is a doorway to more draconian measures that will erode privacy for private citizens.
- rydre 6y ago
  The leaders elected by the citizens or a different way of governance of other sovereign countries have the right to decide what is best for their citizens. American companies should not try to impose their moral values on others. Many eastern cultures do not value privacy as much as you guys do, and it's fine.
  - lilyball 6y ago
    Many people who buy Apple products do so because of Apple’s privacy stance. Just because the government wants to violate its citizens’ privacy doesn’t mean its citizens want that.
    - rydre 6y ago
      >Just because the government wants to violate its citizens’ privacy doesn’t mean its citizens want that. If the majority of the citizens want that, then they can outvote their leaders. If the minority of the citizens want that, they either convince the majority to agree, or they keep quit. I haven't bought the iPhone for the privacy stance. Apple is a part of PRISM. There is ZERO % chance that their privacy stance is more then a façade. While I try to protect my privacy from other private companies, I do not have that privacy requirement from the government as long as what they're doing is legal and collecting it to the extent permitted by the law. I will instead petition and support senators that would change the law to my liking. But if the majority disagrees, either I stop doing it, or I keep trying to change the law slowly by spreading awareness about why it's wrong.
      - AsyncAwait 6y ago
        So assuming I do not want my privacy violated, I am simply at the tyranny of the majority?
        rydre 6y ago
        No, you convince the majority. If they don't agree then maybe the really are right until you convince them otherwise. Imagine if you want to employ slave labor. The majority today disagrees. Would would still call it the tyranny of the majority?
        AsyncAwait 6y ago
        > If they don't agree then maybe the really are right until you convince them otherwise. How far back can you take that? Were they right about slavery, the nazis etc.? Or were they somehow magically wrong then, but are right ever since?
apexalpha 6y ago
In the Netherlands the government uses anonymous data from cell towers to check how crowded areas are. I agree with the part about Apple having too much power over a too big part of our lives. I don't agree with the public humiliation part of your post, don't really see it. It seems like a stretch to connect the Corona apps to this even though most of the world figured out how to slow down Corona without any of these apps.
bad_user 6y ago
I don't think it's OK to conflate the two issues. Whether it's OK for Apple to keep those APIs private, that's a debate we can have, but it's not the same thing as the highway robbery they are doing with app developers.
tarsinge 6y ago
What you say makes sense, the problem is that in the (strange?) world we live in I have more trust in Apple than in my government regarding my data, both technically and from an incentive perspective.
pjc50 6y ago
The UK followed the worst path both technically and in terms of project management; a large part of the work (although it seems not the app itself?) was handed to cronies: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/vote-leave-ai-firm-wins-seven-government-contracts-in-18-months https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/vote-leave-ai-... > not having permission from Apple to use a specific API in an app The privacy question is real. While it is very awkward to have companies making public policy, sometimes it's the more secure outcome. See also the FBI's use of exploits to bypass iPhone security. This is particularly awkward when "a means to determine who has been where and with whom" coincides with a time of large public demonstrations.
kjakm 6y ago
>> Yesterday, the UK announced it was abandoning its own COVID contract tracing app and moving to the Apple model because they couldn't figure out how to make iPhones wake up via bluetooth (because that's a private API only available to Apple). A major western government is facing huge public embarrassment in a public health crisis over what comes down to not having permission from Apple to use a specific API in an app. I would not take the government at its word here. Their entire contact tracing program has been a shambles. They contracted the work out to their friends, put the ex-CEO of one of the countries worst ISP's in charge and wasted months trying to hack together their own soution that was never going to work in the first place. If it was really an Apple issue they could go ahead and release their Android app.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Making an iPhone do work in the background is fairly non-trivial, and not launching for that platform is suicide for a contract tracing app.
- Veen 6y ago
  They contracted the development of the app to Pivotal, which is owned by VMWare — that's hardly outsourcing to a mate who happens to be a developer.
- lozenge 6y ago
  Both sides need to use the app in contact tracing, therefore an Android only app is near useless. Anyway, it's open source and you can see third party enthusiast test results on GitHub. Also, Australia and Germany followed a similar path which you can see in the tech news.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  They are correct though - that API is indeed private.
deltron3030 6y ago
Apple could profit from "market reality blindness" until now, meaning that not having an app on one of the Appstores is going against the basic expectations of consumers these days because it limits their own freedom (freedom to choose a platform). Nobody wants to be locked in. Apple is using this to their own advantage and tries to ignore this market reality.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  A market reality distortion field, if you will.
gear54rus 6y ago
It's about time they got hit. This will show people the fact that apple is not going to protect them from the government (dispelling bullshit marketing). In turn, it will make people adopt truly open and ownable (?) tech, because for some reason people are way more negative about govt control than about apple control. So it's a win in my book.

treebornfrog 6y ago

I don't agree that Apple should bend over backwards. IMO contact tracing opens up a new can of worms and is a doorway to more draconian measures that will erode privacy for private citizens.

rydre 6y ago
The leaders elected by the citizens or a different way of governance of other sovereign countries have the right to decide what is best for their citizens. American companies should not try to impose their moral values on others. Many eastern cultures do not value privacy as much as you guys do, and it's fine.
- lilyball 6y ago
  Many people who buy Apple products do so because of Apple’s privacy stance. Just because the government wants to violate its citizens’ privacy doesn’t mean its citizens want that.
  - rydre 6y ago
    >Just because the government wants to violate its citizens’ privacy doesn’t mean its citizens want that. If the majority of the citizens want that, then they can outvote their leaders. If the minority of the citizens want that, they either convince the majority to agree, or they keep quit. I haven't bought the iPhone for the privacy stance. Apple is a part of PRISM. There is ZERO % chance that their privacy stance is more then a façade. While I try to protect my privacy from other private companies, I do not have that privacy requirement from the government as long as what they're doing is legal and collecting it to the extent permitted by the law. I will instead petition and support senators that would change the law to my liking. But if the majority disagrees, either I stop doing it, or I keep trying to change the law slowly by spreading awareness about why it's wrong.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      So assuming I do not want my privacy violated, I am simply at the tyranny of the majority?
      - rydre 6y ago
        No, you convince the majority. If they don't agree then maybe the really are right until you convince them otherwise. Imagine if you want to employ slave labor. The majority today disagrees. Would would still call it the tyranny of the majority?
        AsyncAwait 6y ago
        > If they don't agree then maybe the really are right until you convince them otherwise. How far back can you take that? Were they right about slavery, the nazis etc.? Or were they somehow magically wrong then, but are right ever since?

apexalpha 6y ago

In the Netherlands the government uses anonymous data from cell towers to check how crowded areas are. I agree with the part about Apple having too much power over a too big part of our lives. I don't agree with the public humiliation part of your post, don't really see it. It seems like a stretch to connect the Corona apps to this even though most of the world figured out how to slow down Corona without any of these apps.

bad_user 6y ago

I don't think it's OK to conflate the two issues. Whether it's OK for Apple to keep those APIs private, that's a debate we can have, but it's not the same thing as the highway robbery they are doing with app developers.

tarsinge 6y ago

What you say makes sense, the problem is that in the (strange?) world we live in I have more trust in Apple than in my government regarding my data, both technically and from an incentive perspective.

pjc50 6y ago

The UK followed the worst path both technically and in terms of project management; a large part of the work (although it seems not the app itself?) was handed to cronies: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/vote-leave-ai-firm-wins-seven-government-contracts-in-18-months https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/vote-leave-ai-... > not having permission from Apple to use a specific API in an app The privacy question is real. While it is very awkward to have companies making public policy, sometimes it's the more secure outcome. See also the FBI's use of exploits to bypass iPhone security. This is particularly awkward when "a means to determine who has been where and with whom" coincides with a time of large public demonstrations.

kjakm 6y ago

>> Yesterday, the UK announced it was abandoning its own COVID contract tracing app and moving to the Apple model because they couldn't figure out how to make iPhones wake up via bluetooth (because that's a private API only available to Apple). A major western government is facing huge public embarrassment in a public health crisis over what comes down to not having permission from Apple to use a specific API in an app. I would not take the government at its word here. Their entire contact tracing program has been a shambles. They contracted the work out to their friends, put the ex-CEO of one of the countries worst ISP's in charge and wasted months trying to hack together their own soution that was never going to work in the first place. If it was really an Apple issue they could go ahead and release their Android app.

saagarjha 6y ago
Making an iPhone do work in the background is fairly non-trivial, and not launching for that platform is suicide for a contract tracing app.
Veen 6y ago
They contracted the development of the app to Pivotal, which is owned by VMWare — that's hardly outsourcing to a mate who happens to be a developer.
lozenge 6y ago
Both sides need to use the app in contact tracing, therefore an Android only app is near useless. Anyway, it's open source and you can see third party enthusiast test results on GitHub. Also, Australia and Germany followed a similar path which you can see in the tech news.
koheripbal 6y ago
They are correct though - that API is indeed private.

deltron3030 6y ago

Apple could profit from "market reality blindness" until now, meaning that not having an app on one of the Appstores is going against the basic expectations of consumers these days because it limits their own freedom (freedom to choose a platform). Nobody wants to be locked in. Apple is using this to their own advantage and tries to ignore this market reality.

Apocryphon 6y ago
A market reality distortion field, if you will.

gear54rus 6y ago

It's about time they got hit. This will show people the fact that apple is not going to protect them from the government (dispelling bullshit marketing). In turn, it will make people adopt truly open and ownable (?) tech, because for some reason people are way more negative about govt control than about apple control. So it's a win in my book.