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I've seen Youtube videos of collapsing buildings in China that were built not terribly long ago (someone on HN posted a link in a related discussion a while ago

I've seen Youtube videos of collapsing buildings in China that were built not terribly long ago (someone on HN posted a link in a related discussion a while ago, but man, I would have to dig). So I would need some additional data to conclude that China is doing it better than anyone else.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
bmitc 6y ago
In response to claims of progress and efficiency, constantly claiming it is done via smoke and mirrors, with what appear to be extreme examples, seems like a good way to be left behind, because it implies there's nothing to learn from others, which is always false.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  Uncritically accepting propaganda of an authoritarian regime about the superiority of it's system seems to be a good way to get oneself crushed under the boot heel of authoritarians, either of the same regime or another taking advantage of the attraction driven to that system.
  - bmitc 6y ago
    That isn't what I said and completely goes off the rails with and twists what is under discussion. No one said to uncritically accept anything. In fact, the hidden assumption is usually to uncritically accept that anything the U.S. does is the best. I simply implied that to attempt to stay ahead, one needs to not blatantly dismiss and discredit what others do, but this is unfortunately very common place in the U.S., whether it regards China or any other country. I have visited China. Whether there's propaganda or not, it doesn't explain away the amount of nice roads, trains, subways, etc. and the efficiencies of these systems. Coming back to the U.S. felt like stepping back decades when it comes to transportation aside from a few things. China does not magically transport people via smoke and mirrors. They are actually doing it. In my city, it's taken decades to build mere single digit miles worth of above ground train track, and it's still not done. Propaganda on either side does not magically explain away the disparity.
  - Barrin92 6y ago
    I've been to China repeatedly over the last 15 years and you can see the pace of change with your own eyes. Large cities built so fast that you can literally walk through neighbourhoods and not recognise where you are after two to three years, that's not propaganda. The real danger today doesn't lie in authoritarianism but in a lack of state capacity. Decades of fearmongering have led the US and significants chunks of Europe to a point where governments can't provide cotton swabs during a pandemic and can't build housing in their cities.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > The real danger today doesn't lie in authoritarianism but in a lack of state capacity. Yes, it does lie in authoritarianism, and that (“lack of state capacity”) is literally always the defense of authoritarianism, especially from those who like to pretend to be merely reluctant supporters rather than ideological devotees. > . Decades of fearmongering have led the US and significants chunks of Europe to a point where governments can't provide cotton swabs during a pandemic I'm not going to talk about Europe, but there is absolutely not a “state capacity” problem produced by “decades of fearmongering” I the US of that kind. Both the material capacity and the administrative capacity for the federal executive to direct that material capacity with no effective veto points exists. The present federal executive deliberately choose to apply that power in the worst possible way, withholding it from practical and useful supplies, preventing subordinate authorities from acquiring supplies they had located despite the lack of federal cooperation, and applying federal production mandates to prevent major disease spreading centers (meat packing plants with major outbreaks) from being closed to constrain the spread of the disease.
      - Barrin92 6y ago
        >Yes, it does lie in authoritarianism, and that is literally always the defense of authoritarianism. One can turn this around trivially. Vague allusions to tyranny are always made to justify present-day dysfunction, without any clear expanation of how concrete steps actually lead to said tyranny. It usually just resembles a sort of vague, primal fear of authority. And on the second point, the US doesn't just have implementation problems. It also altogether lacks power. One reason why construction is so expensive is simply the extreme difficulty to overrule local interests when it comes to acquiring land, and related the threat of litigation. That's a structural issue, not just a sort of temporary failure. The reason Europe can build rail at one fourth the cost per mile is (among other reasons), that local homeowners don't rule supreme. Just look at California to see what a mess it is.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

bmitc 6y ago

In response to claims of progress and efficiency, constantly claiming it is done via smoke and mirrors, with what appear to be extreme examples, seems like a good way to be left behind, because it implies there's nothing to learn from others, which is always false.

dragonwriter 6y ago
Uncritically accepting propaganda of an authoritarian regime about the superiority of it's system seems to be a good way to get oneself crushed under the boot heel of authoritarians, either of the same regime or another taking advantage of the attraction driven to that system.
- bmitc 6y ago
  That isn't what I said and completely goes off the rails with and twists what is under discussion. No one said to uncritically accept anything. In fact, the hidden assumption is usually to uncritically accept that anything the U.S. does is the best. I simply implied that to attempt to stay ahead, one needs to not blatantly dismiss and discredit what others do, but this is unfortunately very common place in the U.S., whether it regards China or any other country. I have visited China. Whether there's propaganda or not, it doesn't explain away the amount of nice roads, trains, subways, etc. and the efficiencies of these systems. Coming back to the U.S. felt like stepping back decades when it comes to transportation aside from a few things. China does not magically transport people via smoke and mirrors. They are actually doing it. In my city, it's taken decades to build mere single digit miles worth of above ground train track, and it's still not done. Propaganda on either side does not magically explain away the disparity.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  I've been to China repeatedly over the last 15 years and you can see the pace of change with your own eyes. Large cities built so fast that you can literally walk through neighbourhoods and not recognise where you are after two to three years, that's not propaganda. The real danger today doesn't lie in authoritarianism but in a lack of state capacity. Decades of fearmongering have led the US and significants chunks of Europe to a point where governments can't provide cotton swabs during a pandemic and can't build housing in their cities.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > The real danger today doesn't lie in authoritarianism but in a lack of state capacity. Yes, it does lie in authoritarianism, and that (“lack of state capacity”) is literally always the defense of authoritarianism, especially from those who like to pretend to be merely reluctant supporters rather than ideological devotees. > . Decades of fearmongering have led the US and significants chunks of Europe to a point where governments can't provide cotton swabs during a pandemic I'm not going to talk about Europe, but there is absolutely not a “state capacity” problem produced by “decades of fearmongering” I the US of that kind. Both the material capacity and the administrative capacity for the federal executive to direct that material capacity with no effective veto points exists. The present federal executive deliberately choose to apply that power in the worst possible way, withholding it from practical and useful supplies, preventing subordinate authorities from acquiring supplies they had located despite the lack of federal cooperation, and applying federal production mandates to prevent major disease spreading centers (meat packing plants with major outbreaks) from being closed to constrain the spread of the disease.
    - Barrin92 6y ago
      >Yes, it does lie in authoritarianism, and that is literally always the defense of authoritarianism. One can turn this around trivially. Vague allusions to tyranny are always made to justify present-day dysfunction, without any clear expanation of how concrete steps actually lead to said tyranny. It usually just resembles a sort of vague, primal fear of authority. And on the second point, the US doesn't just have implementation problems. It also altogether lacks power. One reason why construction is so expensive is simply the extreme difficulty to overrule local interests when it comes to acquiring land, and related the threat of litigation. That's a structural issue, not just a sort of temporary failure. The reason Europe can build rail at one fourth the cost per mile is (among other reasons), that local homeowners don't rule supreme. Just look at California to see what a mess it is.