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We have a Monroe doctrine in our whole hemisphere. AND we have bases surrounding like 80% of China's coast (Korea, Japan, phillipines). Them, as a great power

We have a Monroe doctrine in our whole hemisphere. AND we have bases surrounding like 80% of China's coast (Korea, Japan, phillipines). Them, as a great power, wanting to have an open sea route that they control isn't really that outrageous as far as how great powers act.

jariel 6y ago
These moral equivalence arguments vis-a-vis China are not working. The US has bases in Korea, Japan etc. by invitation of those nations and it not 'control' any of the waters or territories there. Sovereign territories are controlled by sovereigns, and international waters are international - anyone can use them. The US doesn't even have a large enough fleet to project force or truly patrol over there, though it does so tacitly (i.e. where there is a problem, there is focus). "wanting to have an open sea route that they control isn't really that outrageous as far as how great powers act." China is declaring vast areas as de-facto sovereign territory, which is far beyond 'control' it's literally 'ownership'. All international 'sea routes' are effectively open, thanks in large part to the US Navy (and others of course). China is absolutely free to help patrol waters and to ensure international laws are respected - in fact - if that were the behavior of China, everyone would be relieved - but that is not what is happening at all.
- free_rms 6y ago
  How were those bases established, pray tell? You can draw up as many technicalities as you'd like, but those technicalities are tools to serve power. They're tossed the second they aren't useful, by whichever country that can afford it. It would be monumentally stupid for the Chinese to just assume that we'll faithfully honor "international waters neutrality" forever, especially at the moment when they're eclipsing us economically.
  - jariel 6y ago
    "How were those bases established, pray tell?" Yes - let's 'go there'. The difference between having a strategic relationship with the US, versus one with China, is literally embodied in the difference between North and south Korea. The US defeated a pariah nation, Japan, and helped build it into a highly advanced, free nation, with whom the US enjoys a very positive strategic relationship. And FYI Japanese could ask the US to leave at any time, but that won't happen because of course Japan absolutely wants to maintain their partnership. North Korea is the ugliest, totalitarian 'prison state' in the worst in the world, maybe one of the worst the world has ever seen. That's 'Team China'. "It would be monumentally stupid for the Chinese to just assume that we'll faithfully honour "international waters neutrality" forever, especially at the moment when they're eclipsing us economically." Not only is this wrong, it also does not justify their actions. First - so long as there is no 'hot war' the Chinese will be able to ship their goods and navigate waters as they please. It won't matter if they have a 'bigger economy' than the US. Second - none of this justifies grabbing territory. As I mentioned, if China were to use its navy to actively support open navigation of international waters, then the world would welcome that. We'd all be working with on the issue. But that is not the case: China has Imperial ambitions, and if it means putting a few more million Muslims in concentration camps, then so be it. It's really sad to see these constant duplicitous China arguments. That it's not perfectly black and white does not make it entirely murky either - China is a pariah state.
    - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
      Just FYI: South Korea was a brutal military dictatorship until the late 1980s.
- sangnoir 6y ago
  > The US has bases in Korea, Japan etc. by invitation of those nations and it not 'control' any of the waters or territories there. This is outright revisionism. When US bases were established in Japan, German and Korea, the countries were effectively client states of the United States.

jariel 6y ago

These moral equivalence arguments vis-a-vis China are not working. The US has bases in Korea, Japan etc. by invitation of those nations and it not 'control' any of the waters or territories there. Sovereign territories are controlled by sovereigns, and international waters are international - anyone can use them. The US doesn't even have a large enough fleet to project force or truly patrol over there, though it does so tacitly (i.e. where there is a problem, there is focus). "wanting to have an open sea route that they control isn't really that outrageous as far as how great powers act." China is declaring vast areas as de-facto sovereign territory, which is far beyond 'control' it's literally 'ownership'. All international 'sea routes' are effectively open, thanks in large part to the US Navy (and others of course). China is absolutely free to help patrol waters and to ensure international laws are respected - in fact - if that were the behavior of China, everyone would be relieved - but that is not what is happening at all.

free_rms 6y ago
How were those bases established, pray tell? You can draw up as many technicalities as you'd like, but those technicalities are tools to serve power. They're tossed the second they aren't useful, by whichever country that can afford it. It would be monumentally stupid for the Chinese to just assume that we'll faithfully honor "international waters neutrality" forever, especially at the moment when they're eclipsing us economically.
- jariel 6y ago
  "How were those bases established, pray tell?" Yes - let's 'go there'. The difference between having a strategic relationship with the US, versus one with China, is literally embodied in the difference between North and south Korea. The US defeated a pariah nation, Japan, and helped build it into a highly advanced, free nation, with whom the US enjoys a very positive strategic relationship. And FYI Japanese could ask the US to leave at any time, but that won't happen because of course Japan absolutely wants to maintain their partnership. North Korea is the ugliest, totalitarian 'prison state' in the worst in the world, maybe one of the worst the world has ever seen. That's 'Team China'. "It would be monumentally stupid for the Chinese to just assume that we'll faithfully honour "international waters neutrality" forever, especially at the moment when they're eclipsing us economically." Not only is this wrong, it also does not justify their actions. First - so long as there is no 'hot war' the Chinese will be able to ship their goods and navigate waters as they please. It won't matter if they have a 'bigger economy' than the US. Second - none of this justifies grabbing territory. As I mentioned, if China were to use its navy to actively support open navigation of international waters, then the world would welcome that. We'd all be working with on the issue. But that is not the case: China has Imperial ambitions, and if it means putting a few more million Muslims in concentration camps, then so be it. It's really sad to see these constant duplicitous China arguments. That it's not perfectly black and white does not make it entirely murky either - China is a pariah state.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    Just FYI: South Korea was a brutal military dictatorship until the late 1980s.
sangnoir 6y ago
> The US has bases in Korea, Japan etc. by invitation of those nations and it not 'control' any of the waters or territories there. This is outright revisionism. When US bases were established in Japan, German and Korea, the countries were effectively client states of the United States.