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Whereas the original entire bridge was built in 5 years, ahead of schedule and under budget. The original Bay Bridge also had 28 fatalities during its construc

Whereas the original entire bridge was built in 5 years, ahead of schedule and under budget. The original Bay Bridge also had 28 fatalities during its construction. Imagine that happening today!

asdff 6y ago
I'm not sure that harnesses and hard hats would have delayed that timeline by very much.
- ponker 6y ago
  An expectation that acceptable deaths/injuries = 0 definitely affects the timeline.
  - asdff 6y ago
    We haven't won that battle yet. A worker passed away recently at the sofi stadium construction site, due to a miscommunication on maintaining a panel. I don't think preventing this unfortunate death, which would have just required one person mentioning to another that they are working in a particular area, would have added high costs to the build. I'm curious to know the actual costs of worker safety. It's always painted as the boogyman of the high budget project, but how expensive can PPE, building hasty wooden railings, and importantly communicating danger to employees which was the failure in this case really be? I must be missing some key costs here, and would love to be more informed. https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-06-12/attorney-for-ironworker-died-sofi-stadium-fall-says-safety-lapses-contributed https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-06-12/attorney-for...
    - chongli 6y ago
      It isn't just worker safety that has improved in the last century, it's the safety of people in the building throughout its life. Building codes have expanded in scope and complexity over the years. Part of their scope includes installation method restricts and worker training and qualifications. The other aspect of it is general workplace safety regulations which have expanded over the years as well. When budgeting a project, you need to consider both, however. And workers also benefit from both. For example, the restriction on the use of asbestos in building insulation was brought in to reduce the health hazards of living or working in such a building but the construction workers handling the asbestos are clearly the most at-risk group which benefits from the regulation.
    - jkhdigital 6y ago
      Safety is waaaay more about worksite practices and culture than how much you spent on safety equipment. Source: I worked on a deployed aircraft carrier, one of the most dangerous workplaces in the world.
    - makomk 6y ago
      Any solution to safety problems that relies on people just never making a mistake ever isn't realistically a solution at all. What you need is some process to ensure that when work like this is carried out, the area is appropriately marked as unsafe, and processes add cost. In this case, safety would probably have dictated not carrying out the work on top of the roof whilst the work underneath was in progress due to the risk of them misjudging where the weak area started and falling through, potentially blowing up the schedule or even meaning workers were paid to stand around doing nothing, which adds more cost.
- chongli 6y ago
  It takes more than hard hats and harnesses to ensure safety. Of the 11 fatalities that occurred in the Golden Gate Bridge construction (which took place at the same time as the Bay Bridge), 10 of them occurred simultaneously when a platform collapsed. In large-scale construction, safety needs to be built into every aspect of planning and execution of the project. That can add large costs.
- wmoser 6y ago
  I do electronics repair on an offshore oil rig, so not quite the same as construction. When I'm working, using a harness usually doubles to quadruples the time it takes. There is extra paperwork, you need to verify that what you are tying-off to can support the dynamic shock load of a person falling, they tell us 5000 lbfs. We have to put together a plan for if we do fall how the person going to rescue us is going to retrieve us. Also, we can't work alone because if you fall someone needs to be able to notify the rescue team. A 30 second job for one person on the ground may take 2 people an hour when the job is at heights. If you aren't working from scaffolding, you may be working from an unstable work position. There is also intolerance for dropping anything, even if the area under the work area is barricaded off, so each move and fastener removed requires much more concentration. We use special no-drop-tools that are all on lanyards that no matter what sort of organizational strategy frequently end up in a knot.
  - kortilla 6y ago
    > There is also intolerance for dropping anything, even if the area under the work area is barricaded off What’s the reason for this?
    - cma 6y ago
      I'd bet a dropped tool on an offshore rig could end up causing an expensive breakdown or even explosion. Similar to why aircraft grade stuff needs tool checking and checkouts and all bolts use safety wire, where for a car there is less need as the failure modes are less catastrophic.
    - wmoser 6y ago
      It really comes down to everything is a trade-off of some sort. The companies hiring us look at our safety records as part of the vetting process, no one wants their name in the news for bad reasons or dealing with the liability that comes with a worker being injured. Also, nothing slows down a job like an accident investigation. Some of it is depending on how high up you are something can bounce pretty far, possibly outside the barricaded area. The term used is ALARP- As Low As Reasonably Practicable. The trade off is, when someone's working really high up you can make everyone else stay inside but this wouldn't really be productive so you barricade off directly under where the work is going to take place and where you could anticipate something bouncing too, then do everything to still prevent dropping something. I mentioned with the tools, everything needs to be secured, so for example if I'm removing a CCTV camera, I need to attach some form of attachment to the camera before un-bolting it. Of course it's still not possible to secure the nuts or bolts holding the equipment in place so move slowly, pay close attention to every move made. If something does get dropped, there is more paperwork to do and everyone in the company is notified. They calculate what the potential harm to someone is [1]. [1] https://www.preventdrops.com/safety-regulations/understanding-dropped-objects/drops-calculator/ https://www.preventdrops.com/safety-regulations/understandin...
Reedx 6y ago
Even if safety has that magnitude of penalty, it doesn't explain years of delays and 2500% over budget. It would've been factored into the original timeline and budget. And surely after 80 years of improvements in technology, materials, process, etc we have the ability to build in less time AND have no deaths?
- chongli 6y ago
  And surely after 80 years of improvements in technology, materials, process, etc we have the ability to build in less time AND have no deaths? I don’t think this follows. MRI machines save lives. MRI machines did not exist a century ago. MRI machines have made healthcare more expensive, not less. I think the same could apply to buildings with new materials and construction methods.
  - ves 6y ago
    Not all healthcare requires MRI machines, no? Presumably most (not all, I will agree) of the marginal expense is shouldered by situations which make use of the MRI, versus those that could carry on without it (plus another small concession for those situations that use the MRI that would’ve resulted in similar outcomes pre-MRI invention). I agree with your point generally though. It reminds me of the “websites got slower faster than computers got faster, thanks to computers” argument.

Whereas the original entire bridge was built in 5 years, ahead of schedule and under budget. The original Bay Bridge also had 28 fatalities during its construction. Imagine that happening today!

asdff 6y ago

I'm not sure that harnesses and hard hats would have delayed that timeline by very much.

ponker 6y ago
An expectation that acceptable deaths/injuries = 0 definitely affects the timeline.
- asdff 6y ago
  We haven't won that battle yet. A worker passed away recently at the sofi stadium construction site, due to a miscommunication on maintaining a panel. I don't think preventing this unfortunate death, which would have just required one person mentioning to another that they are working in a particular area, would have added high costs to the build. I'm curious to know the actual costs of worker safety. It's always painted as the boogyman of the high budget project, but how expensive can PPE, building hasty wooden railings, and importantly communicating danger to employees which was the failure in this case really be? I must be missing some key costs here, and would love to be more informed. https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-06-12/attorney-for-ironworker-died-sofi-stadium-fall-says-safety-lapses-contributed https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-06-12/attorney-for...
  - chongli 6y ago
    It isn't just worker safety that has improved in the last century, it's the safety of people in the building throughout its life. Building codes have expanded in scope and complexity over the years. Part of their scope includes installation method restricts and worker training and qualifications. The other aspect of it is general workplace safety regulations which have expanded over the years as well. When budgeting a project, you need to consider both, however. And workers also benefit from both. For example, the restriction on the use of asbestos in building insulation was brought in to reduce the health hazards of living or working in such a building but the construction workers handling the asbestos are clearly the most at-risk group which benefits from the regulation.
  - jkhdigital 6y ago
    Safety is waaaay more about worksite practices and culture than how much you spent on safety equipment. Source: I worked on a deployed aircraft carrier, one of the most dangerous workplaces in the world.
  - makomk 6y ago
    Any solution to safety problems that relies on people just never making a mistake ever isn't realistically a solution at all. What you need is some process to ensure that when work like this is carried out, the area is appropriately marked as unsafe, and processes add cost. In this case, safety would probably have dictated not carrying out the work on top of the roof whilst the work underneath was in progress due to the risk of them misjudging where the weak area started and falling through, potentially blowing up the schedule or even meaning workers were paid to stand around doing nothing, which adds more cost.
chongli 6y ago
It takes more than hard hats and harnesses to ensure safety. Of the 11 fatalities that occurred in the Golden Gate Bridge construction (which took place at the same time as the Bay Bridge), 10 of them occurred simultaneously when a platform collapsed. In large-scale construction, safety needs to be built into every aspect of planning and execution of the project. That can add large costs.
wmoser 6y ago
I do electronics repair on an offshore oil rig, so not quite the same as construction. When I'm working, using a harness usually doubles to quadruples the time it takes. There is extra paperwork, you need to verify that what you are tying-off to can support the dynamic shock load of a person falling, they tell us 5000 lbfs. We have to put together a plan for if we do fall how the person going to rescue us is going to retrieve us. Also, we can't work alone because if you fall someone needs to be able to notify the rescue team. A 30 second job for one person on the ground may take 2 people an hour when the job is at heights. If you aren't working from scaffolding, you may be working from an unstable work position. There is also intolerance for dropping anything, even if the area under the work area is barricaded off, so each move and fastener removed requires much more concentration. We use special no-drop-tools that are all on lanyards that no matter what sort of organizational strategy frequently end up in a knot.
- kortilla 6y ago
  > There is also intolerance for dropping anything, even if the area under the work area is barricaded off What’s the reason for this?
  - cma 6y ago
    I'd bet a dropped tool on an offshore rig could end up causing an expensive breakdown or even explosion. Similar to why aircraft grade stuff needs tool checking and checkouts and all bolts use safety wire, where for a car there is less need as the failure modes are less catastrophic.
  - wmoser 6y ago
    It really comes down to everything is a trade-off of some sort. The companies hiring us look at our safety records as part of the vetting process, no one wants their name in the news for bad reasons or dealing with the liability that comes with a worker being injured. Also, nothing slows down a job like an accident investigation. Some of it is depending on how high up you are something can bounce pretty far, possibly outside the barricaded area. The term used is ALARP- As Low As Reasonably Practicable. The trade off is, when someone's working really high up you can make everyone else stay inside but this wouldn't really be productive so you barricade off directly under where the work is going to take place and where you could anticipate something bouncing too, then do everything to still prevent dropping something. I mentioned with the tools, everything needs to be secured, so for example if I'm removing a CCTV camera, I need to attach some form of attachment to the camera before un-bolting it. Of course it's still not possible to secure the nuts or bolts holding the equipment in place so move slowly, pay close attention to every move made. If something does get dropped, there is more paperwork to do and everyone in the company is notified. They calculate what the potential harm to someone is [1]. [1] https://www.preventdrops.com/safety-regulations/understanding-dropped-objects/drops-calculator/ https://www.preventdrops.com/safety-regulations/understandin...

Reedx 6y ago

Even if safety has that magnitude of penalty, it doesn't explain years of delays and 2500% over budget. It would've been factored into the original timeline and budget. And surely after 80 years of improvements in technology, materials, process, etc we have the ability to build in less time AND have no deaths?

chongli 6y ago
And surely after 80 years of improvements in technology, materials, process, etc we have the ability to build in less time AND have no deaths? I don’t think this follows. MRI machines save lives. MRI machines did not exist a century ago. MRI machines have made healthcare more expensive, not less. I think the same could apply to buildings with new materials and construction methods.
- ves 6y ago
  Not all healthcare requires MRI machines, no? Presumably most (not all, I will agree) of the marginal expense is shouldered by situations which make use of the MRI, versus those that could carry on without it (plus another small concession for those situations that use the MRI that would’ve resulted in similar outcomes pre-MRI invention). I agree with your point generally though. It reminds me of the “websites got slower faster than computers got faster, thanks to computers” argument.