5 ms·

> I personally don't get why any developer would prefer Windows over Linux Because windows now literally has all the stuff Linux has plus a lot more. The only

by patrec 6y ago

> I personally don't get why any developer would prefer Windows over Linux Because windows now literally has all the stuff Linux has plus a lot more. The only reason for a well paid developer to prefer linux over windows for a desktop OS is that you don't need any of the extra stuff (a decent desktop experience, hardware support and a commercial end user software eco system) or that you have some fundamental objections concerning Microsoft's business practices. These are good reasons, but experience shows that most people don't care enough about things like privacy to give up convenience or shiny things. Apple may be in for a tough awakening. They profited enormously from providing the desktop OS that a very large fraction of the technical elite has been using for a long time. MacOS still is still smoother than windows in some regards, but the writing is on the wall: linux completely dominates the server but is as hopeless as ever as a general purpose desktop OS, but windows no longer sucks for software development. It used to be that macs had the unique selling point of offering a nice desktop experience on good hardware coupled with something close enough to linux that you could use it for a very wide range of software development tasks. But new hardware is developer hostile and macOS drifts further and further away from linux (ever more lock-down that directly breaks developer workflows and tooling and ever more diverging user land with a mix of ancient GNU and irrelevant BSD tooling). By contrast windows now includes an ultra-high-fidelity linux layer with excellent tooling and integration to "core" windows and Microsoft also owns the world's most popular editor and code hosting solution. I'm amazed how well Microsoft has managed to find back to its embrace, extend, extinguish roots. It is both a technical and a strategic marvel.

ylyn 6y ago
> you don't need any of the extra stuff (a decent desktop experience ...) I have a better experience on Linux now than I've had on Windows in the past.
dman 6y ago
I hope they stop at extend this time.
- smichel17 6y ago
  I think "extend" is a good safety buffer / canary in the coal mine, so I'd be happier if they stuck to "embrace".
  - yarrel 6y ago
    Spoiler: they don't.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Google is much further ahead with ChromeOS and Android.
est31 6y ago
According to the Stack Overflow survey, Linux Desktop marketshare for developer has been growing constantly over the years. 23% in 2018's "primary desktop OS" question, 26% in 2019, 27% in 2020. Prior to that the question was asked differently, allowing multiple choices, but Linux was even lower back then. WSL was released in 2016 so much of this growth has happened while it was out. There might be some delay in the effects though, and maybe it would have been a much faster trend had it not been for WSL. https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2016#technology-desktop-operating-system https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2016#technology-de... https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018#technology-_-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018#technology-_-... https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-... https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-de...
- patrec 6y ago
  WSL2 came out (in non-preview version) last month and is a vital improvement. Windows Terminal is still pre-1.0 as is the CUDA and DirectX on Linux stuff. Then give it a bit of time to percolate through, technically and socially.
  - Semaphor 6y ago
    > Windows Terminal is still pre-1.0 Windows Terminal 1.0 has been out for a bit, the current version is 1.0.1401.0 [0] [0]: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/releases/tag/v1.0.1401.0 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/releases/tag/v1.0.1401...
    - aspenmayer 6y ago
      Do you know when it’s supposed to become default terminal? I thought I heard it was coming eventually.
      - 6y ago
bransonf 6y ago
I'm exactly the audience Microsoft is winning over. For the last 3-5 years, I've been an avid Mac user. The primary reason has always been the familiarity of the terminal. Now, Apple is making a lot of hardware decisions that I don't like. Having used WSL daily for several months now, it's the game changer. My next laptop will probably be a PC, and I can only say this because of WSL.
- hvis 6y ago
  Your next laptop will be a personal computer?
  - _cairn 6y ago
    I believe they meant PC as in PC (Windows) vs Mac. I've encountered a lot of people who use PC <-> Windows Machine interchangeably.
    - RaptorJ 6y ago
      PC as in IBM PC compatible
      - hvis 6y ago
        Does that imply Windows?
        ivalm 6y ago
        From a historical branding perspective —- yes!
    - txcwpalpha 6y ago
      "Personal Computer" has long been specifically associated with Windows machines and specifically excludes Mac and Linux. It started with the "IBM Personal Computer" and its branding caused non-IBM machines (eg Macintosh) to use other branding ("a mac"). When IBM partnered with Microsoft to make home computers, this branding really solidified that "PC = Windows". And then of course, there was the very successful advertising campaign from Apple where they specifically distinguish Macs from PCs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_a_Mac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_a_Mac Essentially, Macs are "personal computers" but they aren't "Personal Computers", if you know what I mean.
mortehu 6y ago
A couple of big things still missing with WSL: Direct rendering for X. This means the maximum OpenGL version that can be supported with hardware acceleration is 1.4, so many modern X program don't work or will use software rendering. Multi-monitor support. Under X, windows are by default positioned and sized by the window manager and it's hard for application developers to screw it up, but under Windows each application developer has to be careful to make their program work well on multiple monitors. This shows, and event some built-in Windows applications get confused by multiple monitors, usually by having an action performed on one monitor open a window on a different monitor.
sergeykish 6y ago
More like familiar experience. Most people don't care about things they have not experienced, Blub paradox. It is amazing how Mac users stick with Apple through a lot of inconvenience - x86 transition, USB type C, adapters, no audio jack, touchbar, breaking updates, walled garden iPhone. But they also brought a lot to community - good chassis, quality touchpad, HiDPI, wide gamut, capacitive touchscreens with gorilla glass. Microsoft users has no less inconvenience - ribbon, metro, viruses, ever changing frameworks, ever confusing names (winrt), wrecked settings, custom theme on every application. And community gains - Word, Excel, up to IE6 innovations, XBox, VS Code, language servers, maybe crossplatform .Net some day. I do not want to wreck them, I want to be objective. Microsoft of 80s rocked, in 90s - big and everpresent. Today they excel in PR. Hell, they got package manager 20 years late.
fulafel 6y ago
> The only reason for a well paid developer to prefer linux that you don't need any of the extra stuff (a decent desktop experience, [...list of several more "linux sucks" opinions]) I think you'll find many Linux devs who have previously used or considered Windows have their own list of "windows sucks" reasons. (By "Well paid", are you referring to people who are willing to spend money on big ticket desktop sw, or people who are in it for the money and don't have the curiosity or interest about how the system works? I think for most it's not about not being able to afford the SW.)
- patrec 6y ago
  I simply meant that price can be another valid reason to prefer linux on the desktop, but not one that applies to most of the HN readership.
ImaCake 6y ago
>The only reason for a well paid developer to prefer linux over windows for a desktop OS is that you don't need any of the extra stuff (a decent desktop experience, hardware support and a commercial end user software eco system) or that you have some fundamental objections concerning Microsoft's business practices. These are good reasons, but experience shows that most people don't care enough about things like privacy to give up convenience or shiny things. Sometimes it is simply the problem of linux being utterly broken. Linux users wonder why people won't adopt linux, and it is because it is full of problems. I spent a full day this week trying to get an internet connection for my linux desktop working (sans ethernet cable) and was unable to. USB tethering was broken for unfixable reasons and wifi adapters are a nightmare with linux. So that drove me back to windows, I tried WSL, and now I probably just won't ever bother trying to run linux on desktop again. I didn't want to tinker with my software, I wanted to do my personal projects. Windows at least lets me get the job done.
pjmlp 6y ago
Just a small correction, the only "developers" that find Apple's offerings hostile are those using macOS as Linux replacement instead of paying to Linux OEMs. Developers targeting Apple platforms are doing just fine.
- int_19h 6y ago
  There's a lot more devs in the first category - mostly web stack.

by patrec 6y ago

ylyn 6y ago

> you don't need any of the extra stuff (a decent desktop experience ...) I have a better experience on Linux now than I've had on Windows in the past.

dman 6y ago

I hope they stop at extend this time.

smichel17 6y ago
I think "extend" is a good safety buffer / canary in the coal mine, so I'd be happier if they stuck to "embrace".
- yarrel 6y ago
  Spoiler: they don't.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pjmlp 6y ago
Google is much further ahead with ChromeOS and Android.

est31 6y ago

According to the Stack Overflow survey, Linux Desktop marketshare for developer has been growing constantly over the years. 23% in 2018's "primary desktop OS" question, 26% in 2019, 27% in 2020. Prior to that the question was asked differently, allowing multiple choices, but Linux was even lower back then. WSL was released in 2016 so much of this growth has happened while it was out. There might be some delay in the effects though, and maybe it would have been a much faster trend had it not been for WSL. https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2016#technology-desktop-operating-system https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2016#technology-de... https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018#technology-_-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018#technology-_-... https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-... https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-de...

patrec 6y ago
WSL2 came out (in non-preview version) last month and is a vital improvement. Windows Terminal is still pre-1.0 as is the CUDA and DirectX on Linux stuff. Then give it a bit of time to percolate through, technically and socially.
- Semaphor 6y ago
  > Windows Terminal is still pre-1.0 Windows Terminal 1.0 has been out for a bit, the current version is 1.0.1401.0 [0] [0]: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/releases/tag/v1.0.1401.0 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/releases/tag/v1.0.1401...
  - aspenmayer 6y ago
    Do you know when it’s supposed to become default terminal? I thought I heard it was coming eventually.
    - 6y ago

bransonf 6y ago

I'm exactly the audience Microsoft is winning over. For the last 3-5 years, I've been an avid Mac user. The primary reason has always been the familiarity of the terminal. Now, Apple is making a lot of hardware decisions that I don't like. Having used WSL daily for several months now, it's the game changer. My next laptop will probably be a PC, and I can only say this because of WSL.

hvis 6y ago
Your next laptop will be a personal computer?
- _cairn 6y ago
  I believe they meant PC as in PC (Windows) vs Mac. I've encountered a lot of people who use PC <-> Windows Machine interchangeably.
  - RaptorJ 6y ago
    PC as in IBM PC compatible
    - hvis 6y ago
      Does that imply Windows?
      - ivalm 6y ago
        From a historical branding perspective —- yes!
  - txcwpalpha 6y ago
    "Personal Computer" has long been specifically associated with Windows machines and specifically excludes Mac and Linux. It started with the "IBM Personal Computer" and its branding caused non-IBM machines (eg Macintosh) to use other branding ("a mac"). When IBM partnered with Microsoft to make home computers, this branding really solidified that "PC = Windows". And then of course, there was the very successful advertising campaign from Apple where they specifically distinguish Macs from PCs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_a_Mac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_a_Mac Essentially, Macs are "personal computers" but they aren't "Personal Computers", if you know what I mean.

mortehu 6y ago

A couple of big things still missing with WSL: Direct rendering for X. This means the maximum OpenGL version that can be supported with hardware acceleration is 1.4, so many modern X program don't work or will use software rendering. Multi-monitor support. Under X, windows are by default positioned and sized by the window manager and it's hard for application developers to screw it up, but under Windows each application developer has to be careful to make their program work well on multiple monitors. This shows, and event some built-in Windows applications get confused by multiple monitors, usually by having an action performed on one monitor open a window on a different monitor.

sergeykish 6y ago

More like familiar experience. Most people don't care about things they have not experienced, Blub paradox. It is amazing how Mac users stick with Apple through a lot of inconvenience - x86 transition, USB type C, adapters, no audio jack, touchbar, breaking updates, walled garden iPhone. But they also brought a lot to community - good chassis, quality touchpad, HiDPI, wide gamut, capacitive touchscreens with gorilla glass. Microsoft users has no less inconvenience - ribbon, metro, viruses, ever changing frameworks, ever confusing names (winrt), wrecked settings, custom theme on every application. And community gains - Word, Excel, up to IE6 innovations, XBox, VS Code, language servers, maybe crossplatform .Net some day. I do not want to wreck them, I want to be objective. Microsoft of 80s rocked, in 90s - big and everpresent. Today they excel in PR. Hell, they got package manager 20 years late.

fulafel 6y ago

> The only reason for a well paid developer to prefer linux that you don't need any of the extra stuff (a decent desktop experience, [...list of several more "linux sucks" opinions]) I think you'll find many Linux devs who have previously used or considered Windows have their own list of "windows sucks" reasons. (By "Well paid", are you referring to people who are willing to spend money on big ticket desktop sw, or people who are in it for the money and don't have the curiosity or interest about how the system works? I think for most it's not about not being able to afford the SW.)

patrec 6y ago
I simply meant that price can be another valid reason to prefer linux on the desktop, but not one that applies to most of the HN readership.

ImaCake 6y ago

>The only reason for a well paid developer to prefer linux over windows for a desktop OS is that you don't need any of the extra stuff (a decent desktop experience, hardware support and a commercial end user software eco system) or that you have some fundamental objections concerning Microsoft's business practices. These are good reasons, but experience shows that most people don't care enough about things like privacy to give up convenience or shiny things. Sometimes it is simply the problem of linux being utterly broken. Linux users wonder why people won't adopt linux, and it is because it is full of problems. I spent a full day this week trying to get an internet connection for my linux desktop working (sans ethernet cable) and was unable to. USB tethering was broken for unfixable reasons and wifi adapters are a nightmare with linux. So that drove me back to windows, I tried WSL, and now I probably just won't ever bother trying to run linux on desktop again. I didn't want to tinker with my software, I wanted to do my personal projects. Windows at least lets me get the job done.

pjmlp 6y ago

Just a small correction, the only "developers" that find Apple's offerings hostile are those using macOS as Linux replacement instead of paying to Linux OEMs. Developers targeting Apple platforms are doing just fine.

int_19h 6y ago
There's a lot more devs in the first category - mostly web stack.