15 ms·

You guys aren't seeing the bigger picture. TG LLC got 1.7 bil USD with two rounds of investment. US based investors are returned 72% of original fund. Those 28

by gdmka 6y ago

You guys aren't seeing the bigger picture. TG LLC got 1.7 bil USD with two rounds of investment. US based investors are returned 72% of original fund. Those 28% are 500 mil USD. It's rumored that TG CEO got 300 mil selling his share of VK, so in the end he returned all personal investment on TG development. Who's behind all those funds, private investors etc. How many of those are under US sanctions really? And now, upon failing to submit the reasonable paperwork even thought they had quite expensive and experienced lawyers, Pavel suddenly calls for unban in Russia. Like a week later a legislation appears and almost immediately after that the deal is done. Reconciliation happened unbelievably quick. Or his words have so much power now? Just think Crypto AG serving the purposes of BND and CIA when you talk about Telegram.

octaveguin 6y ago
So the most reasonable explanation is that Pavel is in a conspiracy with the Russian government and is living in exile as a cover huh? Sounds pretty complicated when a simpler answer would also exist.
- gdmka 6y ago
  I don't feel like he's living in an exile. For starters, the citizenship that was acquired for $ 250k something is from Saint Kitts and Nevis, known for it's abuse of human rights. To me it's a classical double standard behavior. He's vocal on not being able to conduct business in Russia as he pleases and it's a clear violation in his purview. Never heard him being involved with fighting inequity of the new home country. Second of all, Saudi Arabia, the unofficial Telegram HQ, is tax exempt for hi-tech, but don't quote me on it.
  - LudwigNagasena 6y ago
    > For starters, the citizenship that was acquired for $ 250k something is from Saint Kitts and Nevis, known for it's abuse of human rights. To me it's a classical double standard behavior. Blame the UK and EU who allow visa-free travel with SKN but not with Russia and don’t sanction it. It is a country with a population of 50 000 people. The only reason it is not extremely poor is because its business model is giving citizenship to businessmen to avoid taxes and allow them to travel freely. Fighting an obviously lost fight against SKN and jeopardizing your whole life sounds even more stupid than fighting windmills.
    - gdmka 6y ago
      My point is he's accustomed to cutting corners. >>Fighting an obviously lost right against SKN and jeopardizing your whole life sounds even more stupid than fighting windmills. He could've applied for maltese or cypriot passport.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Known for its abuse of human rights? The only thing I could find was that male homosexuality is illegal there. You may regard that as abuse of a particular human right, but to me, it's considerably less than it sounded like you meant.
    - gdmka 6y ago
      Well... if you assume safety is basic human right as well then this is relevant[0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saint_Kitts_and_Nevis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saint_Kitts_and_Nev...
      - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        Wow. Seven times higher murder rate than the US? I'm astonished.
  - bduerst 6y ago
    Just FYI - Brexit killed the St. Kitts/Nevis loophole for EU passports, since their association with the EU was through the U.K.
  - maqp 6y ago
    Durov's exile lasted for less than two months https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/03/technology/once-celebrated-in-russia-programmer-pavel-durov-chooses-exile.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/03/technology/once-celebrate... He was never properly persecuted. He never had a close call with McPolonium when eating out. He's not considered an actual threat.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  Pavel has a history of sketchy behavior, some leaked info by insider [1] has uncovered that many things Durov said about the location of the developers and Telegram development is false , and Durov's response to these allegations were extremely unconvincing. I'm in a camp who thinks that this 'ban' was just a PR stunt coordinated with Roscomdanzor, which was known to be futile from the start and instantly raised the credibility of Telegram and cemented the myth how 'protected' it is. [1] https://medium.com/@anton.rozenberg/friendship-betrayal-claims-3f395bcc95fa https://medium.com/@anton.rozenberg/friendship-betrayal-clai...
  - maqp 6y ago
    There's no evidence the ban was a PR stunt, but it did play into Durov's hands, and through that, into the hands of the Kremlin when every dissident flocked to a service with centralized attack point to compromise all group chats -- the Telegram server.
SergeAx 6y ago
There is a simpler explanation. 1) European Court of Human Rights will publish a set of decisions about Russia blocking access to different websites. [0] All those decisions are expected to be in favour of plaintiffs. 2) Court would soon communicate first case about blocking of Telegram by collateral party. 3) Communication of primary case by Telegram LLC [1] is a matter of weeks, it was delayed due to company restructurizing. Russia gonna face direct lifting order from ECHR and that would be a Zugzwang: position, from which any move is losing. Besides, blocking of Telegram for at leas last year and a half was inefficient, if not nonexistent. It is a common subject of satire towards state actors responsible for blocking. So, I take it as a face-saving move, according to Hanlon's razor. [0] https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf?library=ECHR&id=003-6724619-8964773&filename=Forthcoming%20judgments%20and%20decisions%2023-25.06.2020.pdf https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf?library=ECHR&i... [1] https://agora.legal/fs/a_delo2doc/97_file_Report_2018.pdf https://agora.legal/fs/a_delo2doc/97_file_Report_2018.pdf
- factorialboy 6y ago
  Do you really think Russia is influenced by the European Court of Human Rights?
  - SergeAx 6y ago
    Currently Russia complies with most (all?) ECHR decisions and orders. I think it can be interpreted as being influenced.
  - PeterisP 6y ago
    Yes, Russia is (still?) a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, in which it agrees to be bound by decisions of ECHR. There have been quite a few ECHR cases where monetary compensation was awarded from Russia to someone, and up until now Russia has been complying with these decisions and paying these compensation amounts.
    - int_19h 6y ago
      Russia in the process of amending the constitution right now to, among other things, specifically declare priority of Russian law over any decision of international courts.

by gdmka 6y ago

octaveguin 6y ago

So the most reasonable explanation is that Pavel is in a conspiracy with the Russian government and is living in exile as a cover huh? Sounds pretty complicated when a simpler answer would also exist.

gdmka 6y ago
I don't feel like he's living in an exile. For starters, the citizenship that was acquired for $ 250k something is from Saint Kitts and Nevis, known for it's abuse of human rights. To me it's a classical double standard behavior. He's vocal on not being able to conduct business in Russia as he pleases and it's a clear violation in his purview. Never heard him being involved with fighting inequity of the new home country. Second of all, Saudi Arabia, the unofficial Telegram HQ, is tax exempt for hi-tech, but don't quote me on it.
- LudwigNagasena 6y ago
  > For starters, the citizenship that was acquired for $ 250k something is from Saint Kitts and Nevis, known for it's abuse of human rights. To me it's a classical double standard behavior. Blame the UK and EU who allow visa-free travel with SKN but not with Russia and don’t sanction it. It is a country with a population of 50 000 people. The only reason it is not extremely poor is because its business model is giving citizenship to businessmen to avoid taxes and allow them to travel freely. Fighting an obviously lost fight against SKN and jeopardizing your whole life sounds even more stupid than fighting windmills.
  - gdmka 6y ago
    My point is he's accustomed to cutting corners. >>Fighting an obviously lost right against SKN and jeopardizing your whole life sounds even more stupid than fighting windmills. He could've applied for maltese or cypriot passport.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Known for its abuse of human rights? The only thing I could find was that male homosexuality is illegal there. You may regard that as abuse of a particular human right, but to me, it's considerably less than it sounded like you meant.
  - gdmka 6y ago
    Well... if you assume safety is basic human right as well then this is relevant[0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saint_Kitts_and_Nevis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saint_Kitts_and_Nev...
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      Wow. Seven times higher murder rate than the US? I'm astonished.
- bduerst 6y ago
  Just FYI - Brexit killed the St. Kitts/Nevis loophole for EU passports, since their association with the EU was through the U.K.
- maqp 6y ago
  Durov's exile lasted for less than two months https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/03/technology/once-celebrated-in-russia-programmer-pavel-durov-chooses-exile.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/03/technology/once-celebrate... He was never properly persecuted. He never had a close call with McPolonium when eating out. He's not considered an actual threat.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
Pavel has a history of sketchy behavior, some leaked info by insider [1] has uncovered that many things Durov said about the location of the developers and Telegram development is false , and Durov's response to these allegations were extremely unconvincing. I'm in a camp who thinks that this 'ban' was just a PR stunt coordinated with Roscomdanzor, which was known to be futile from the start and instantly raised the credibility of Telegram and cemented the myth how 'protected' it is. [1] https://medium.com/@anton.rozenberg/friendship-betrayal-claims-3f395bcc95fa https://medium.com/@anton.rozenberg/friendship-betrayal-clai...
- maqp 6y ago
  There's no evidence the ban was a PR stunt, but it did play into Durov's hands, and through that, into the hands of the Kremlin when every dissident flocked to a service with centralized attack point to compromise all group chats -- the Telegram server.

SergeAx 6y ago

There is a simpler explanation. 1) European Court of Human Rights will publish a set of decisions about Russia blocking access to different websites. [0] All those decisions are expected to be in favour of plaintiffs. 2) Court would soon communicate first case about blocking of Telegram by collateral party. 3) Communication of primary case by Telegram LLC [1] is a matter of weeks, it was delayed due to company restructurizing. Russia gonna face direct lifting order from ECHR and that would be a Zugzwang: position, from which any move is losing. Besides, blocking of Telegram for at leas last year and a half was inefficient, if not nonexistent. It is a common subject of satire towards state actors responsible for blocking. So, I take it as a face-saving move, according to Hanlon's razor. [0] https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf?library=ECHR&id=003-6724619-8964773&filename=Forthcoming%20judgments%20and%20decisions%2023-25.06.2020.pdf https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf?library=ECHR&i... [1] https://agora.legal/fs/a_delo2doc/97_file_Report_2018.pdf https://agora.legal/fs/a_delo2doc/97_file_Report_2018.pdf

factorialboy 6y ago
Do you really think Russia is influenced by the European Court of Human Rights?
- SergeAx 6y ago
  Currently Russia complies with most (all?) ECHR decisions and orders. I think it can be interpreted as being influenced.
- PeterisP 6y ago
  Yes, Russia is (still?) a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, in which it agrees to be bound by decisions of ECHR. There have been quite a few ECHR cases where monetary compensation was awarded from Russia to someone, and up until now Russia has been complying with these decisions and paying these compensation amounts.
  - int_19h 6y ago
    Russia in the process of amending the constitution right now to, among other things, specifically declare priority of Russian law over any decision of international courts.