6 ms·

This is demonstrably incorrect if you look at some of the highest paying companies in SV. FAANG are of course well known for paying way way above what is necess

This is demonstrably incorrect if you look at some of the highest paying companies in SV. FAANG are of course well known for paying way way above what is necessary to satisfy "everyone's material needs and desires", and yet they are well known for still being ruthless political cultures and backstabbing. Execs might be congenial because at that level, congenial is just how you play the game. It's still cutthroat, but overt backstabbing doesn't get you very far in a tight knit group of execs. But in other groups like a team of devs, IME high pay just attracts the kind of person who wants even higher pay and will do whatever it takes to get it.

dlp211 6y ago
> FAANG are of course well known for paying way way above what is necessary to satisfy "everyone's material needs and desires" Do they though? Quality of Life is not just how much you make, it's relative to what you have to spend. You can't realistically afford a home -even for most of the engineers- with a decent school with a sub 30 minute commute anywhere around one of these companies unless you want to be house poor or you are a dual earning family.
- tidepod12 6y ago
  Yes, they do. This comes up every time compensation gets mentioned on HN. Engineers claim that "I only make $500k/yr at Google and I'm poor because SF prices :(" which is just bullshit. In a previous thread, someone mentioned that they make $300k/yr in SF, and even after paying for housing in a nice area and food/utility expenses, they had over $11,000 per month left over in discretionary income. That is insane. Unless your material needs and desires are to own a superyacht, even "just" $200k/yr starting salary is still far more than enough to satisfy you.
  - dlp211 6y ago
    Most Engineers do NOT make $500k total comp per year at FAANG companies, most engineers don't make $300k TC/yr at these companies, and those aren't the engineers I'm talking about anyways. These companies are made up mostly of engineers who make between $100k-$250k. That's still not a small amount of money; and I never claimed that these people are poor; just that these salaries don't satisfy their needs and desires and these salaries certainly do not feel like you make $100k-$250k. Part of that is anchoring our expectations to what those amounts of money mean to when we first really began to understand the concept of money which is usually in our tween-teen stage of life, but it's also that these are in incredibly high COL areas.
    - BeetleB 6y ago
      I don't live in SV. Looking at Mountain View, there are quite a few nice 2000 sq ft houses to rent for about $6500/month. When I compare that to what I'm paying in a cheaper COL area, I can assure you that the difference in pay between me and typical Google compensation, after taxes, more than compensates for this increase in rent. I won't say it's "luxury", but it's still better than most people get around the country.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        I pay $2200/month mortgage to live in the burbs of a major southeastern city. - 5 bedroom, 3-1/2 bath, 3100 square feet. It was a brand new build in 2016. I just went to https://paycheckcity.com https://paycheckcity.com and did a gross up calculator. At first I thought you were underestimating how much more I would have to make to make the move worthwhile - with downsizing. But if we were willing to downsize, I would need to make about $70K - $80K more than the average senior software engineer makes in my area. I was off. $220K - $240K is about the average range for engineer with 3-5 years of experience in $BigTech so $6500/month is not unreasonable.
    - amznthrowaway5 6y ago
      Not true. The amazon sde2 external hire offer I saw given to people with >=1 year of experience is around 250K in Seattle and higher in California. Amazon is known as one of the lower paying FAANG companies.
      - dlp211 6y ago
        The average SDE 2 total compensation is around $215k according to levels.fyi which I have found to fairly accurate. I'm not saying you didn't see that offer, just that it isn't normal.
        amznthrowaway5 6y ago
        $215K in Seattle is still quite high. External hire gets a lot more than internal promo and that site lags behind the current offer compensation which is some part of the diff.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    I’d be curious to know where that person got such cheap housing. $300k/yr translates to $15k/month take home. Houses are like $10k/month if you’re looking to own. Even if you rent, it’s still close to $5-6k/month if you want a decent neighborhood. I’m not even talking about nice houses btw. Maybe they rent an apartment and share the rent. That’s the only way I see them coming up with those numbers. $300k/year isn’t enough for single income families in the Bay Area. EDIT: I'm curious if you live in the bay area and where you get your notions.
    - tidepod12 6y ago
      In less than 5 minutes of looking I found several very nice houses for $4-5k/month in multiple nice neighborhoods. Renting, there are actual luxury condos and apartments ready to rent for $3-4k, again in multiple nice neighborhoods. >$300k/year isn’t enough for single income families in the Bay Area. The median household income for SF families is less than $100k, and you're telling me three times that "isn't enough"? That's bullshit. Responding to your edit: I don't live in SF, but prior to covid I traveled there every week for work, so I am familiar with the city. For a local example, my best friend makes ~$140k/yr, lives in Nob Hill in a gorgeous high rise apartment, and still has thousands to spend every month on fun discretionary activities. Another close friend who makes ~$250k/yr owns a great house in Inner Sunset and they certainly seem like they are able to afford any other desires they want (a boat, all kinds of tech gadgets, trips all the time, etc).
      - bradlys 6y ago
        You're going to have to show listings. Last time, people were posting spam postings they found on Craigslist. If you want an apartment - you can find 1-bedroom "luxury" apartments (also known as normal apartments outside the bay area) for about $3300-4000/month. Even at $7000/month income that leaves "thousands" left over but that is a fucked ratio of expenses. You shouldn't be spending close to 50% of your take home on RENT. You will never be able to retire and live the same lifestyle. If you want a house, you're not finding a nice house (3+ bedrooms, central air, etc.) and in a nice neighborhood (San Carlos, Hillsborough, Palo Alto, Los Altos, Los Gatos, Menlo Park, etc.) for $4000-5000. I'd love to see the listings... I don't even bother with SF because the prices are even more outlandish for nice neighborhoods. Familiar with the city and actually paying rent here are different. I've had coworkers who lived with their parents who are wildly out of tune with how much it costs to rent a place. I don't know how your friend affords a high rise on $140k/yr - maybe you should ask what their rent is and if they're sharing it with someone. You can't buy a house now with $250k/yr in inner sunset. Go to Zillow and find me a nice house you can afford on $250k/yr and won't be house poor in the end with. Do it - prove me wrong.
CuriousSkeptic 6y ago
Can’t find the video now. But saw some political theory thing where they argued that there is a U-shaped correlation greed and relative wealth
phreeza 6y ago
This idea of FAANGs having a culture of ruthless political backstabbing is new to me, is it really the case? I have heard about things like misaligned incentives (eg launching a chat app to get people promoted and then discontinuing it a year later) but that actually seems like the opposite of ruthless to me (complacent?)
- tidepod12 6y ago
  Facebook: https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2019/01/14/facebook-culture-performance-reviews-fb-median-pay.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2019/01/14/facebook... Netflix: https://www.cnet.com/news/netflix-workplace-culture-often-ruthless-demoralizing-wsj-reports/ https://www.cnet.com/news/netflix-workplace-culture-often-ru... Amazon: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-... I remember these articles from when they were posted. I don't know of any specific articles for Apple or Google, but I know that my friends at Google think Google is a brutal place to work for most (Google of early 2010s apparently was much more chill, but not anymore). As for Apple, Steve Jobs and Tim Cook are of course known for their incredibly ruthless management style.
- amznthrowaway5 6y ago
  Yes, those misaligned incentives mean rewarding the cutthroat psychopaths who are obsessed with claiming credit for others work, instead of genuine team players who care about delivering a quality product. There is lots of cronyism, like all Indian or Chinese teams who protect and promote each other while only hiring others to fill their PIP quota. The higher you go in the org chart the worse it gets.

dlp211 6y ago

> FAANG are of course well known for paying way way above what is necessary to satisfy "everyone's material needs and desires" Do they though? Quality of Life is not just how much you make, it's relative to what you have to spend. You can't realistically afford a home -even for most of the engineers- with a decent school with a sub 30 minute commute anywhere around one of these companies unless you want to be house poor or you are a dual earning family.

tidepod12 6y ago
Yes, they do. This comes up every time compensation gets mentioned on HN. Engineers claim that "I only make $500k/yr at Google and I'm poor because SF prices :(" which is just bullshit. In a previous thread, someone mentioned that they make $300k/yr in SF, and even after paying for housing in a nice area and food/utility expenses, they had over $11,000 per month left over in discretionary income. That is insane. Unless your material needs and desires are to own a superyacht, even "just" $200k/yr starting salary is still far more than enough to satisfy you.
- dlp211 6y ago
  Most Engineers do NOT make $500k total comp per year at FAANG companies, most engineers don't make $300k TC/yr at these companies, and those aren't the engineers I'm talking about anyways. These companies are made up mostly of engineers who make between $100k-$250k. That's still not a small amount of money; and I never claimed that these people are poor; just that these salaries don't satisfy their needs and desires and these salaries certainly do not feel like you make $100k-$250k. Part of that is anchoring our expectations to what those amounts of money mean to when we first really began to understand the concept of money which is usually in our tween-teen stage of life, but it's also that these are in incredibly high COL areas.
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    I don't live in SV. Looking at Mountain View, there are quite a few nice 2000 sq ft houses to rent for about $6500/month. When I compare that to what I'm paying in a cheaper COL area, I can assure you that the difference in pay between me and typical Google compensation, after taxes, more than compensates for this increase in rent. I won't say it's "luxury", but it's still better than most people get around the country.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      I pay $2200/month mortgage to live in the burbs of a major southeastern city. - 5 bedroom, 3-1/2 bath, 3100 square feet. It was a brand new build in 2016. I just went to https://paycheckcity.com https://paycheckcity.com and did a gross up calculator. At first I thought you were underestimating how much more I would have to make to make the move worthwhile - with downsizing. But if we were willing to downsize, I would need to make about $70K - $80K more than the average senior software engineer makes in my area. I was off. $220K - $240K is about the average range for engineer with 3-5 years of experience in $BigTech so $6500/month is not unreasonable.
  - amznthrowaway5 6y ago
    Not true. The amazon sde2 external hire offer I saw given to people with >=1 year of experience is around 250K in Seattle and higher in California. Amazon is known as one of the lower paying FAANG companies.
    - dlp211 6y ago
      The average SDE 2 total compensation is around $215k according to levels.fyi which I have found to fairly accurate. I'm not saying you didn't see that offer, just that it isn't normal.
      - amznthrowaway5 6y ago
        $215K in Seattle is still quite high. External hire gets a lot more than internal promo and that site lags behind the current offer compensation which is some part of the diff.
- bradlys 6y ago
  I’d be curious to know where that person got such cheap housing. $300k/yr translates to $15k/month take home. Houses are like $10k/month if you’re looking to own. Even if you rent, it’s still close to $5-6k/month if you want a decent neighborhood. I’m not even talking about nice houses btw. Maybe they rent an apartment and share the rent. That’s the only way I see them coming up with those numbers. $300k/year isn’t enough for single income families in the Bay Area. EDIT: I'm curious if you live in the bay area and where you get your notions.
  - tidepod12 6y ago
    In less than 5 minutes of looking I found several very nice houses for $4-5k/month in multiple nice neighborhoods. Renting, there are actual luxury condos and apartments ready to rent for $3-4k, again in multiple nice neighborhoods. >$300k/year isn’t enough for single income families in the Bay Area. The median household income for SF families is less than $100k, and you're telling me three times that "isn't enough"? That's bullshit. Responding to your edit: I don't live in SF, but prior to covid I traveled there every week for work, so I am familiar with the city. For a local example, my best friend makes ~$140k/yr, lives in Nob Hill in a gorgeous high rise apartment, and still has thousands to spend every month on fun discretionary activities. Another close friend who makes ~$250k/yr owns a great house in Inner Sunset and they certainly seem like they are able to afford any other desires they want (a boat, all kinds of tech gadgets, trips all the time, etc).
    - bradlys 6y ago
      You're going to have to show listings. Last time, people were posting spam postings they found on Craigslist. If you want an apartment - you can find 1-bedroom "luxury" apartments (also known as normal apartments outside the bay area) for about $3300-4000/month. Even at $7000/month income that leaves "thousands" left over but that is a fucked ratio of expenses. You shouldn't be spending close to 50% of your take home on RENT. You will never be able to retire and live the same lifestyle. If you want a house, you're not finding a nice house (3+ bedrooms, central air, etc.) and in a nice neighborhood (San Carlos, Hillsborough, Palo Alto, Los Altos, Los Gatos, Menlo Park, etc.) for $4000-5000. I'd love to see the listings... I don't even bother with SF because the prices are even more outlandish for nice neighborhoods. Familiar with the city and actually paying rent here are different. I've had coworkers who lived with their parents who are wildly out of tune with how much it costs to rent a place. I don't know how your friend affords a high rise on $140k/yr - maybe you should ask what their rent is and if they're sharing it with someone. You can't buy a house now with $250k/yr in inner sunset. Go to Zillow and find me a nice house you can afford on $250k/yr and won't be house poor in the end with. Do it - prove me wrong.

CuriousSkeptic 6y ago

Can’t find the video now. But saw some political theory thing where they argued that there is a U-shaped correlation greed and relative wealth

phreeza 6y ago

This idea of FAANGs having a culture of ruthless political backstabbing is new to me, is it really the case? I have heard about things like misaligned incentives (eg launching a chat app to get people promoted and then discontinuing it a year later) but that actually seems like the opposite of ruthless to me (complacent?)

tidepod12 6y ago
Facebook: https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2019/01/14/facebook-culture-performance-reviews-fb-median-pay.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2019/01/14/facebook... Netflix: https://www.cnet.com/news/netflix-workplace-culture-often-ruthless-demoralizing-wsj-reports/ https://www.cnet.com/news/netflix-workplace-culture-often-ru... Amazon: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-... I remember these articles from when they were posted. I don't know of any specific articles for Apple or Google, but I know that my friends at Google think Google is a brutal place to work for most (Google of early 2010s apparently was much more chill, but not anymore). As for Apple, Steve Jobs and Tim Cook are of course known for their incredibly ruthless management style.
amznthrowaway5 6y ago
Yes, those misaligned incentives mean rewarding the cutthroat psychopaths who are obsessed with claiming credit for others work, instead of genuine team players who care about delivering a quality product. There is lots of cronyism, like all Indian or Chinese teams who protect and promote each other while only hiring others to fill their PIP quota. The higher you go in the org chart the worse it gets.