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I'll answer the bullet points in order. 1: This isn't really a relevant point. If all of the other people in their office are amazing programmers then maybe th

I'll answer the bullet points in order. 1: This isn't really a relevant point. If all of the other people in their office are amazing programmers then maybe they are getting fabulous feedback. My complaint really doesn't address this and it's an entirely unknown since you don't have any information about anyone's particular work environment. That said, I'll agree that at a place without code reviews you don't even have a shot at getting good feedback. 2. Now this is definitely a valid complaint. That said I wonder how many different technologies people who work on some side projects work with on average in a month. Perhaps this problem is balanced by the folks who only program at work having more depth in their chosen technology but less breadth overall. Again, valid complaint... but it's likely more complicated than you've made it out to be. 3. This is just not true... People have all sorts of reasons they choose to master a particular skill. You make it sound as if someone can't put their heart into learning their trade simply because they have a belief that it's their job to perform at their very best and not just at a "minimally competent" level. Maybe the opinion exists because it is true.. but your bullet points don't provide compelling arguments and they reek of the same elitism I was originally talking about.

kragen 16y ago
Interesting points. With regard to #1, your chances of working your way up to getting code review comments from Linus Torvalds or Rob Pike is a lot better if you're contributing to (other people's!) open-source projects than in almost any non-OSS work environment. I don't think people have this attitude because of these theoretical reasons, though. I think they believe it for empirical reasons — because they don't know any first-class programmers who only code at work and don't work on open-source software. Do you? I was just trying to explain the evidence I've observed, not trying to convince you from first principles.
- tseabrooks 16y ago
  But, doesn't it follow that you wouldn't know of these great programmers precisely because of the fact that they only code at work. You wouldn't have visibility of them unless you worked with them... and I suspect that for most of us the number of other programmers we work directly with over our careers is somewhere around 100 - 200 (Just a guess based on how many I work with directly and how many times I'm likely to change employers)... That's a very small slice of all of the programmers... Though it occurs to me that participating in OSS would allow you to work with far more developers than you would otherwise.Though I'd argue that it isn't really as direct contact as the workplace.
  - kragen 16y ago
    Yes, all of that is true.
  - tseabrooks 16y ago
    Also, in retrospect I targeted "OSS" a lot but what I'm really talking about is any side project that isn't your day job. I don't want anyone to get the idea I'm attack OSS.

kragen 16y ago

Interesting points. With regard to #1, your chances of working your way up to getting code review comments from Linus Torvalds or Rob Pike is a lot better if you're contributing to (other people's!) open-source projects than in almost any non-OSS work environment. I don't think people have this attitude because of these theoretical reasons, though. I think they believe it for empirical reasons — because they don't know any first-class programmers who only code at work and don't work on open-source software. Do you? I was just trying to explain the evidence I've observed, not trying to convince you from first principles.

tseabrooks 16y ago
But, doesn't it follow that you wouldn't know of these great programmers precisely because of the fact that they only code at work. You wouldn't have visibility of them unless you worked with them... and I suspect that for most of us the number of other programmers we work directly with over our careers is somewhere around 100 - 200 (Just a guess based on how many I work with directly and how many times I'm likely to change employers)... That's a very small slice of all of the programmers... Though it occurs to me that participating in OSS would allow you to work with far more developers than you would otherwise.Though I'd argue that it isn't really as direct contact as the workplace.
- kragen 16y ago
  Yes, all of that is true.
- tseabrooks 16y ago
  Also, in retrospect I targeted "OSS" a lot but what I'm really talking about is any side project that isn't your day job. I don't want anyone to get the idea I'm attack OSS.