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I will readily take a business-minded, action-oriented cofounder who gets shit done. I have absolutely no interest in a hustler. In my mind, that is the absol

I will readily take a business-minded, action-oriented cofounder who gets shit done. I have absolutely no interest in a hustler. In my mind, that is the absolute definition of a hustler, someone who will get shit done. Predicating that hustlers are sleazy, or have questionable ethics, or don't value technical skill sets is the same as assuming that "hackers" are people who break into computers. Sure there are probably a lot of sleazy "hustlers", just as their are malicious "hackers", but in my mind the definition of a hustler is someone who comes at the same problem as a good hacker would - with the same tenacity and willingness to try new things and the inability to quit in solving a problem. In which case I absolutely want a hustler on my team, just not a shitty one. Admittedly, I've done Micah some disservice by referencing his article. The Hustlers he describes aren't the sleezeballs I keep encountering, but unfortunately they share the same space and a more literal interpretation of the term includes them. So it sounds like the summary is that good hustlers are hard to come by, just as good hackers are, not that they aren't good to have. The title seems to suggest otherwise.

ktsmith 16y ago
Hustler both describes enterprising go getters and sleaze ball unscrupulous jerks. The problem is which meaning is more prevalent. I can't think of a single person I would describe with the word hustler and mean it in a positive way. I also wouldn't use the word hacker to refer to myself or any of my respected peers outside of technical circles due to its very negative connotations with non technical folk. While the premise of the hackers and hustlers essay was good the word choice may be poor for the average person. In my experience you end up spending as much time describing the intended use of the words hacker and hustler as you do making the point about determined and talented people. The end result is the point is lost in technicalities.
- tgriesser 16y ago
  I agree with the assessment that both terms come with such differing meanings, that they should probably be avoided in the mainstream for the fear of losing the point in the technicalities. What I took issue with is that the post was in direct response to a piece that outlined exactly what the term hustler meant in the positive sense, then went on to say that they wouldn't want one based on the negative meaning, when in reality they just couldn't find a good one to work with. As the original article from Micah said: A Hustler on the other other hand is a relationship builder. Someone who can build direct relationships with their customers. They arent really promoters, although they do a lot of promotion. They arent salespeople, although they do a lot of selling. They are passion people. They have the ability to articulate their passion clearly and in a way that gets other people equally passionate. As a technical person who has worked on several projects with someone who I consider to be an "enterprising go getter" and in my mind a hustler, I think that they can often be greatly under appreciated - especially good ones, and this article didn't do anything to convey that respect.
  - andrewacove 16y ago
    I may not have been clear enough in explaining it, but my blog post isn't a direct response to Micah's, though I use his post for context. Mine is a response to the people who think they are hustlers (by Micah's definition), promote themselves as such, and are in actuality the type of people I describe. Unfortunately, they significantly outnumber hustlers who hew to the intended definition. The post is also tinged with some additional dismay at my discovery that some of the hustlers held up in the valley as prime examples of the form have proven themselves to be sleazy as well. One of those people is who I refer to in the sentences about lies.
  - ktsmith 16y ago
    I think what Andrew ended his post with was really the point: "I'd love to meet one who fits the intended description, but I imagine the real hustlers avoid the label. I certainly would - if only to avoid being associated with the rest." I think, and I certainly hope, that Andrew wasn't trying to dismiss or detract from the value of hustlers as described by Micah. I think the entire post was about the choice of language. From my own perspective, while I greatly appreciated the points Micah made in his essay I felt that the word hustler was being forced onto people for the sole purpose of having a convenient label like "hacker" for the business and pr side of things. That's certainly due to my own preconceived notions and experiences with "hustlers" in the negative sense. I don't think of those amazing business people I've worked with over the years as hustlers, and I'm not sure I have a label that would describe them. I do know that hustler isn't the word I'd use and if I was currently looking for someone like that right now that word wouldn't be used in my search.
- puredemo 16y ago
  A little from column A, a little from column B. ;p
andrewacove 16y ago
> the summary is that good hustlers are hard to come by That's true, but I'll add to it. I've met good hustlers - people who _get shit done_ - but they still leverage sleazy tactics. And that's the problem. Out of the possible combinations of sleaze and GSD, I keep encountering {sleaze} and {sleaze, GSD}. What I'm finding hard to come by, and what I'd kill for in a cofounder is the other: {GSD}. And tbh, I think {sleaze, GSD} is more representative of what people view as an ideal hustler. I can say, with certainty, that I don't want that in a partner.
nupark 16y ago
Your definition of 'hustler' is both valley-centric as well as seemingly predicated on a wink and a nod denial of the sleazy origins of the term. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3A+hustler http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&#3...
- tgriesser 16y ago
  I am only going off the definition which this article is referencing. http://learntoduck.com/micah/hackers-hustlers http://learntoduck.com/micah/hackers-hustlers
  - nupark 16y ago
    Yes, this applies to the original article -- and the minority use of this vernacular in general. People (like myself, and I believe the original poster) take issue with the use of 'hustler' because we see clear parallels between the negative connotations of the term and those individuals that self-identity with it.
    - nedwin 16y ago
      I've posted this before but this is where I use my reference for a hustler. http://joeyroth.com/charlatan-martyr-hustler/ http://joeyroth.com/charlatan-martyr-hustler/ It's all semantics at the end of the day but I personally embrace the word hustler and would like to consider myself fairly ethical in life and business. If you're looking for that right person don't discount them because they call themselves a hustler, search for why they are who they say they are. Note: I'm not in the valley.

ktsmith 16y ago

Hustler both describes enterprising go getters and sleaze ball unscrupulous jerks. The problem is which meaning is more prevalent. I can't think of a single person I would describe with the word hustler and mean it in a positive way. I also wouldn't use the word hacker to refer to myself or any of my respected peers outside of technical circles due to its very negative connotations with non technical folk. While the premise of the hackers and hustlers essay was good the word choice may be poor for the average person. In my experience you end up spending as much time describing the intended use of the words hacker and hustler as you do making the point about determined and talented people. The end result is the point is lost in technicalities.

tgriesser 16y ago
I agree with the assessment that both terms come with such differing meanings, that they should probably be avoided in the mainstream for the fear of losing the point in the technicalities. What I took issue with is that the post was in direct response to a piece that outlined exactly what the term hustler meant in the positive sense, then went on to say that they wouldn't want one based on the negative meaning, when in reality they just couldn't find a good one to work with. As the original article from Micah said: A Hustler on the other other hand is a relationship builder. Someone who can build direct relationships with their customers. They arent really promoters, although they do a lot of promotion. They arent salespeople, although they do a lot of selling. They are passion people. They have the ability to articulate their passion clearly and in a way that gets other people equally passionate. As a technical person who has worked on several projects with someone who I consider to be an "enterprising go getter" and in my mind a hustler, I think that they can often be greatly under appreciated - especially good ones, and this article didn't do anything to convey that respect.
- andrewacove 16y ago
  I may not have been clear enough in explaining it, but my blog post isn't a direct response to Micah's, though I use his post for context. Mine is a response to the people who think they are hustlers (by Micah's definition), promote themselves as such, and are in actuality the type of people I describe. Unfortunately, they significantly outnumber hustlers who hew to the intended definition. The post is also tinged with some additional dismay at my discovery that some of the hustlers held up in the valley as prime examples of the form have proven themselves to be sleazy as well. One of those people is who I refer to in the sentences about lies.
- ktsmith 16y ago
  I think what Andrew ended his post with was really the point: "I'd love to meet one who fits the intended description, but I imagine the real hustlers avoid the label. I certainly would - if only to avoid being associated with the rest." I think, and I certainly hope, that Andrew wasn't trying to dismiss or detract from the value of hustlers as described by Micah. I think the entire post was about the choice of language. From my own perspective, while I greatly appreciated the points Micah made in his essay I felt that the word hustler was being forced onto people for the sole purpose of having a convenient label like "hacker" for the business and pr side of things. That's certainly due to my own preconceived notions and experiences with "hustlers" in the negative sense. I don't think of those amazing business people I've worked with over the years as hustlers, and I'm not sure I have a label that would describe them. I do know that hustler isn't the word I'd use and if I was currently looking for someone like that right now that word wouldn't be used in my search.
puredemo 16y ago
A little from column A, a little from column B. ;p

andrewacove 16y ago

> the summary is that good hustlers are hard to come by That's true, but I'll add to it. I've met good hustlers - people who _get shit done_ - but they still leverage sleazy tactics. And that's the problem. Out of the possible combinations of sleaze and GSD, I keep encountering {sleaze} and {sleaze, GSD}. What I'm finding hard to come by, and what I'd kill for in a cofounder is the other: {GSD}. And tbh, I think {sleaze, GSD} is more representative of what people view as an ideal hustler. I can say, with certainty, that I don't want that in a partner.

nupark 16y ago

Your definition of 'hustler' is both valley-centric as well as seemingly predicated on a wink and a nod denial of the sleazy origins of the term. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3A+hustler http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&#3...

tgriesser 16y ago
I am only going off the definition which this article is referencing. http://learntoduck.com/micah/hackers-hustlers http://learntoduck.com/micah/hackers-hustlers
- nupark 16y ago
  Yes, this applies to the original article -- and the minority use of this vernacular in general. People (like myself, and I believe the original poster) take issue with the use of 'hustler' because we see clear parallels between the negative connotations of the term and those individuals that self-identity with it.
  - nedwin 16y ago
    I've posted this before but this is where I use my reference for a hustler. http://joeyroth.com/charlatan-martyr-hustler/ http://joeyroth.com/charlatan-martyr-hustler/ It's all semantics at the end of the day but I personally embrace the word hustler and would like to consider myself fairly ethical in life and business. If you're looking for that right person don't discount them because they call themselves a hustler, search for why they are who they say they are. Note: I'm not in the valley.