5 ms·

That fire was in 1969. This is kind of like moving to SF because it used to have hippies. I've been to Cleveland and it's actually a pretty solid place to live

That fire was in 1969. This is kind of like moving to SF because it used to have hippies. I've been to Cleveland and it's actually a pretty solid place to live. I would argue you could have a far better life there with a $50k house than slavishly working for the rest of your life for a multi-million dollar tiny home in a giant sprawled out suburb. FWIW I never met a single person in the bay area that didn't want to live basically anywhere else, but couldn't because of work (and access to work). I'm sure they're there but I never met them. Networking is going to be terrible during COVID too, which is arguably the best thing about being down there for a startup anyways. I just think people are going to be amazed at how much that place hollows out as more tech companies decide to permanently go remote. I loved the weather, but I also like not having to work as much to put a roof over my head. I'm sure that resonates with a lot of other people too, that don't think retiring early surrounded by friends and family is a prison sentence.

ghaff 6y ago
I do understand the attraction of parts of SF, Marin, the Santa Cruz mountains, etc. But not so much the Valley. And of course the places I just named are eye-wateringly expensive relative to other very attractive/relatively expensive places in the country that are also very attractive in terms of outdoor recreational activities and other such benefits.
- silpheed5 6y ago
  The weather is nice year round, lots a hiking nearby, beach is 40 min drive and easier commute to work while still being able to visit the city at night or weekends when you want. Good public schools if you live in the right areas. My personal favorite is the lack of mosquitos. I've lived in the midwest, south, new england and in Europe and never even considered there could be a place with such pleasant weather and no mosquitos. It does get chilly in the evenings though.
  - pengaru 6y ago
    Having spent quite a bit of time in the Santa Cruz mountains, Big Basin SP, Pescadero/Butano SP, and Portola Redwoods SP areas, the no mosquitoes thing is a bit optimistic. Sure it's not as bad as say, northern Minnesota, but once you get away from the ocean and desert areas, if there's standing freshwater around there can be plenty of mosquitoes. The last time I camped in Big Basin everyone was running through clouds of them to/from the restrooms. But yeah, in the cities like SF and LA, there aren't very many. The city would spray for mosquitoes at night when I lived in San Mateo, which surprised me coming from the midwest and not expecting Californians to be ok with such chemicals sprayed throughout their neighborhoods while they slept.
    - frank2 6y ago
      In my part of Marin County, they use a bacteria, Bacillus thuringiensis, to control the mosquitoes. There are enough mosquitoes so that you'll get bit if sit in one spot long enough, but I don't recall ever getting bit while walking.
fragmede 6y ago
Even before the original dot-com boom and bust in 2001, San Francisco was seen as a desirable place to live for non-tech reasons. The tech boom drove out anyone and everyone that couldn't afford it, and even those that managed be in rent-controlled apartments found themselves priced out as neighborhoods gentrified and food prices increased far in excess of inflation. I'm really hopeful that remote work becomes widely accepted so that everyone gets more of what they want. That those who don't want to live in a city are no longer forced to and for those that want to live in a city, it becomes more affordable. The most recent tech boom finally managed to get some construction going on in SF, but in a city where living rooms were converted into bedrooms and wildly successful 20-somethings having roommates, it's going to have to fall a long way before the city is affordable again on minimum wage.
kregasaurusrex 6y ago
After the 2008 housing recession, the price of homes in suburban Cleveland dropped to some of the lowest levels in the country. You'd likely pay more for a new car than buying an entire house, after incentives like the first-time homebuyer's credit. The locally famous Cleveland Tourism video[0] said that you could buy a house for the price of a VCR and it's not too far off. [0] https://youtu.be/oZzgAjjuqZM https://youtu.be/oZzgAjjuqZM
- pengaru 6y ago
  According to the 2010 Census Cleveland lost 17.1% of its population at that time.
  - asdff 6y ago
    Even today the city is a third of the population it was 60 years ago.
cgriswald 6y ago
> FWIW I never met a single person in the bay area that didn't want to live basically anywhere else, ... All this says is you live in a bubble. I know many people who would love to live here but can't afford to do so. I also live here and the only reason I'm considering leaving is the expense. I imagine most people who own a home here don't stay here because they hate it. They could sell their homes and probably retire early anywhere else. FWIW I'm not from here. The only people who want to live "anywhere else" aren't from here and are only here for the money. Those people will leave, sure. But then again, maybe not, when they see that employees here make more than they do in Cleveland. > I'm sure that resonates with a lot of other people too, that don't think retiring early surrounded by friends and family is a prison sentence. I think you're vastly underestimating the number of people that are from here that want to stay here. I've got many, many friends that have left the area simply because they can't afford it. It's going to be decades before the bay "empties out", because as soon as that starts happening, those people living six adults to a three-bedroom home are going to start spreading out and the people that left against their will are going to come back. And there is still going to be an absurd amount of money here, even it gets spread around some. And as much as companies may start to allow remote work (not at all a forgone conclusion in my mind, although the $$ seems right), there are still going to be competitive advantages to employees and founders who decide to live here.

ghaff 6y ago

I do understand the attraction of parts of SF, Marin, the Santa Cruz mountains, etc. But not so much the Valley. And of course the places I just named are eye-wateringly expensive relative to other very attractive/relatively expensive places in the country that are also very attractive in terms of outdoor recreational activities and other such benefits.

silpheed5 6y ago
The weather is nice year round, lots a hiking nearby, beach is 40 min drive and easier commute to work while still being able to visit the city at night or weekends when you want. Good public schools if you live in the right areas. My personal favorite is the lack of mosquitos. I've lived in the midwest, south, new england and in Europe and never even considered there could be a place with such pleasant weather and no mosquitos. It does get chilly in the evenings though.
- pengaru 6y ago
  Having spent quite a bit of time in the Santa Cruz mountains, Big Basin SP, Pescadero/Butano SP, and Portola Redwoods SP areas, the no mosquitoes thing is a bit optimistic. Sure it's not as bad as say, northern Minnesota, but once you get away from the ocean and desert areas, if there's standing freshwater around there can be plenty of mosquitoes. The last time I camped in Big Basin everyone was running through clouds of them to/from the restrooms. But yeah, in the cities like SF and LA, there aren't very many. The city would spray for mosquitoes at night when I lived in San Mateo, which surprised me coming from the midwest and not expecting Californians to be ok with such chemicals sprayed throughout their neighborhoods while they slept.
  - frank2 6y ago
    In my part of Marin County, they use a bacteria, Bacillus thuringiensis, to control the mosquitoes. There are enough mosquitoes so that you'll get bit if sit in one spot long enough, but I don't recall ever getting bit while walking.

fragmede 6y ago

Even before the original dot-com boom and bust in 2001, San Francisco was seen as a desirable place to live for non-tech reasons. The tech boom drove out anyone and everyone that couldn't afford it, and even those that managed be in rent-controlled apartments found themselves priced out as neighborhoods gentrified and food prices increased far in excess of inflation. I'm really hopeful that remote work becomes widely accepted so that everyone gets more of what they want. That those who don't want to live in a city are no longer forced to and for those that want to live in a city, it becomes more affordable. The most recent tech boom finally managed to get some construction going on in SF, but in a city where living rooms were converted into bedrooms and wildly successful 20-somethings having roommates, it's going to have to fall a long way before the city is affordable again on minimum wage.

kregasaurusrex 6y ago

After the 2008 housing recession, the price of homes in suburban Cleveland dropped to some of the lowest levels in the country. You'd likely pay more for a new car than buying an entire house, after incentives like the first-time homebuyer's credit. The locally famous Cleveland Tourism video[0] said that you could buy a house for the price of a VCR and it's not too far off. [0] https://youtu.be/oZzgAjjuqZM https://youtu.be/oZzgAjjuqZM

pengaru 6y ago
According to the 2010 Census Cleveland lost 17.1% of its population at that time.
- asdff 6y ago
  Even today the city is a third of the population it was 60 years ago.

cgriswald 6y ago

> FWIW I never met a single person in the bay area that didn't want to live basically anywhere else, ... All this says is you live in a bubble. I know many people who would love to live here but can't afford to do so. I also live here and the only reason I'm considering leaving is the expense. I imagine most people who own a home here don't stay here because they hate it. They could sell their homes and probably retire early anywhere else. FWIW I'm not from here. The only people who want to live "anywhere else" aren't from here and are only here for the money. Those people will leave, sure. But then again, maybe not, when they see that employees here make more than they do in Cleveland. > I'm sure that resonates with a lot of other people too, that don't think retiring early surrounded by friends and family is a prison sentence. I think you're vastly underestimating the number of people that are from here that want to stay here. I've got many, many friends that have left the area simply because they can't afford it. It's going to be decades before the bay "empties out", because as soon as that starts happening, those people living six adults to a three-bedroom home are going to start spreading out and the people that left against their will are going to come back. And there is still going to be an absurd amount of money here, even it gets spread around some. And as much as companies may start to allow remote work (not at all a forgone conclusion in my mind, although the $$ seems right), there are still going to be competitive advantages to employees and founders who decide to live here.