8 ms·

Maximum sentence is 10 years, she's unlikely to get that, but _minimum_ is 5 years IIRC. That's a _long_ time. And then you're a felon and you can't find a dece

by m0zg 6y ago

Maximum sentence is 10 years, she's unlikely to get that, but _minimum_ is 5 years IIRC. That's a _long_ time. And then you're a felon and you can't find a decent job. What was the calculus there, I wonder? Under what circumstances would a person rationally consider torching a police cruiser to be worth the risk of 5 years in the slammer?

coldtea 6y ago
Perhaps when prioritising their morality and cause, over what's beneficial for them?
- m0zg 6y ago
  What "morality" or "cause" are you talking about? She burned a police cruiser.
  - komali2 6y ago
    The war against police brutality, of course. Kneeling didn't work, soooo... Expected respondes: pass a law. Protest peacefully. Stand in front of city hall with assault rifles. Vote for (some centrist). Just because you may not like how someone is dealing with the fact that they could be killed with no recourse by cops because of the color of their skin, doesn't mean their methods are invalid or even irrational. The classic star wars question - is Luke Skywalker a rebel hero, or a terrorist threat to order? Before the Empire blew up an entire planet to make a point, it was a fairly valid question.
    - m0zg 6y ago
      Please explain how a white woman torching a police cruiser advances _any_ goals other than increasing the dramatically underrepresented white female prison population. Please also mention which other types of crime you consider conducive to rectifying the situation in any meaningful way.
      - coffeemaniac 6y ago
        How would you feel if someone set your car on fire? Probably like someone doesn't appreciate you very much, right? Well this is how they want the city to feel about their police force. It also demonstrates that by and large, police don't prevent chaos and property damage. Most of the time, people simply decide not to do this, and when they decide they want to, police are largely powerless to stop them. This should lead others to more broadly question whether police are capable of stopping other bad actors, rather than merely reacting to them.
      - jethro_tell 6y ago
        Not a full study, but when people were kneeling to draw attention, it poled at about 30% for 60% against 10% undecided. When people burned down the police precinct in Minneapolis and documented the unwarranted police violence, it polled at about 60% for and 30% against. I don't know why, but as a general rule with people, if it bleeds, it leads. And that's what's worked here.
      - fzeroracer 6y ago
        The opposite side of the equation is how does the police slashing tires and breaking civilian property advance their goal beyond dramatically increasing the levels of anger towards them? If she's going to jail for torching a car, then will the officers that committed similar property damage also be going to jail?
    - coffeemaniac 6y ago
      To expand on your explanation -- not only did kneeling not work, it was roundly mocked and derided by even progressives. It turns out, Americans pay attention when you start smashing property and taking flatscreen TVs.
    - RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
      > Luke Skywalker a rebel hero, or a terrorist threat to order Given episodes 7-9, Luke is a terroristic threat to order. After destroying the existing order, he failed to establish anything better and it quickly devolved into what we see in 7. And he also failed to kill the main villain which meant that all the chaos and death that he was responsible for had no offsetting good.
  - coffeemaniac 6y ago
    In America right now there are ongoing protests and riots over the conduct of domestic police departments, specifically their proclivity toward extrajudicial execution and battery of black people in the streets. Damaging police property including their cars and precincts is a powerful (if legally risky) expression of that anger.
    - rafaelreinert 6y ago
      We are On 21st century, we know violence doesn’t stop violence, crime doesn’t stop crime. People should use modern tools to reduce racial issues. Like voting or social media’s, never burn a state property. Tax money could be used for better things But now the police department will buy 2 more cars.
      - wayneftw 6y ago
        The revolution may not be televised... but couldn’t it be streamed? I want to see people use live streaming to debate first, but then organize so effectively to just swarm on the old systems to make change. People need to move faster.
        pmiller2 6y ago
        The debate is over. You and I weren’t invited.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >We are On 21st century, we know violence doesn’t stop violence, crime doesn’t stop crime. No, we don't know that. Historically it has been violence that stopped violence, and crime (like toppling an unjust government, breaking segregation laws, etc) that stopped crime. >People should use modern tools to reduce racial issues. Like voting or social media’s, never burn a state property. Yeah, they've tried blogging about it. There are also tons of books on the matter, vlogs, articles, etc. They voted Obama twice. Didn't work. A few months of angry riots and a few burned down police departments though, could send a very clear message to politicians and police chiefs, and help change laws to restrict police abuse.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    So? Some people consider police bad, either at specific instances (some policemen/departments at some times doing bad things) or inherently (the police as an institution in general), and have been fighting against them for centuries... Some people think police should pay for the abuses that they regularly and without punishment do. Some others think police should stop existing in general, or exist only in a very limited capacity, or be replaced by citizen patrols, and several other varieties... So, that morality and cause... Doesn't have to agree with yours to be a morality, and even less so to be a cause...
    - buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
      Their beliefs are irrelevant. You don't get to break laws and due process just because of your beliefs and anger. How many mass shootings have we seen from people with "beliefs". Stop trying to justify people burning cars just because they don't get one they want right away.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >Their beliefs are irrelevant. You don't get to break laws and due process just because of your beliefs and anger. Yes you do. You might not get away with it, but that's not really pertinent. In fact historically most change happened through people breaking laws because of their beliefs and anger. And in every past society, like ours, most thought its laws are the apex of law-making, and should never be challenged or broken in anger, nor its law agents assaulted etc. Only history doesn't work that way.
      - pmiller2 6y ago
        Yes, you do get to break the law after working inside the system fails. You know this country was founded by people breaking the laws of England, right?
loeg 6y ago
What makes you think every person knows the mandatory minimum sentencing for every single crime?
- catalogia 6y ago
  I doubt many non-lawyers know precisely what the penalty for arson is. However I do think it's general knowledge that arson is considered a serious crime with serious penalties. Arson in the general case is easily the worst sort of property crime since it often goes hand-in-hand with murder. Granted, murder wasn't really a plausible outcome in this particular cause, but the general association between arson and murder is nevertheless commonly understood and arson is consequently understood to be a very serious matter, even when nobody gets hurt.
koyote 6y ago
Apparently she picked up an already burning piece of wood and threw it in. So it's less likely that she left the house that morning with the intent of torching cars. In the moment, with everyone and everthing going on around her, I doubt she was thinking rationally or even knew that torching a car would be a long prison sentence. (if someone asked me before reading this article, I would have assumed a large fine + some community service maybe; then again I am not American so I have no idea how sentences compare).
- reaperducer 6y ago
  In the moment, with everyone and everthing going on around her, I doubt she was thinking rationally or even knew that torching a car would be a long prison sentence "Everyone else was doing it" didn't fly with my mom, and probably won't get a pass from Judge Wapner, either.
  - tejtm 6y ago
    It passes with enforcement among themselves
  - koyote 6y ago
    Herd mentality is a thing though and I would not be surprised if a judge took that into account when sentencing.
    - hackermailman 6y ago
      It's much more likely you will be made the example, because you were the only person caught torching two police cars. I realize these things are symbolic and all but anybody who's actually been to a prison would never recklessly endanger their freedom wasting it on burning taxpayer money which is infinite in supply. Those cars will be replaced tomorrow while you go to prison for years. If you want to bring down the system get a majority of people to stop paying taxes then you get the Bernie Madoff club fed don't arson a cruiser you're just playing into the state's hands and getting a violent offender custody status now you have to fend for yourself against experienced violent criminals constantly trying to steal your commissary or provoke you into doing more time. It's not just that you go to prison, it's that you get more time added as a 'normal' non career criminal who now has to deal with prof criminals daily or getting crossed out from work assignments by guards who are constantly on your ass and decide to increase your time or worse send you to a more high security prison where you are almost guaranteed to do more time. Anybody thinking of going outside and playing anarchist should know what they're getting themselves into, wait until your cellmate tells you that they're getting out in 2 months and you have to hold their contraband and weapons or the guards decide to put you in a high security yard because you're in there for something ridiculous like 'terroristic threats and arson'. You don't ever get out on schedule
beervirus 6y ago
People do irrational things sometimes, story at 10.
jackpirate 6y ago
My reaction to those numbers is different. 5 years seems absurdly large to me for a spontaneous act of vandalism that cost the tax payers max $100,000.
- ByteJockey 6y ago
  Fire is probably the key element here. There have been instances in the past where fires set have spread and killed numerous people. People get freaked out and push for harsher sentences. I have a hard time imagining smashing cars would result in that harsh of a sentence.
jxramos 6y ago
So did the gal plead guilty already? Has she been arraigned yet, I couldn't make it out.
- drocer88 6y ago
  More info here: https://www.inquirer.com/news/philly-protests-arrests-fbi-lore-elisabeth-blumenthal-george-floyd-20200617.html https://www.inquirer.com/news/philly-protests-arrests-fbi-lo... Philly Inquirer article has more on other cases where "alleged arsonists" are being caught via social media posts.
pnw_hazor 6y ago
I don't know what the actual charges are, I can't seem to find a copy of the criminal complaint. But the DOJ press release included: "If convicted, the defendant faces a maximum possible sentence of eighty years in prison, followed by three years of supervised release, and a fine of up to $500,000." She might be charged with terrorism crimes, but either way it looks bad for her. At least a felony - even without prison time that will sting.
awtawtwat3aw 6y ago
this is mental illness, logic does not play a role here. purge these radicals, please!

by m0zg 6y ago

coldtea 6y ago

Perhaps when prioritising their morality and cause, over what's beneficial for them?

m0zg 6y ago
What "morality" or "cause" are you talking about? She burned a police cruiser.
- komali2 6y ago
  The war against police brutality, of course. Kneeling didn't work, soooo... Expected respondes: pass a law. Protest peacefully. Stand in front of city hall with assault rifles. Vote for (some centrist). Just because you may not like how someone is dealing with the fact that they could be killed with no recourse by cops because of the color of their skin, doesn't mean their methods are invalid or even irrational. The classic star wars question - is Luke Skywalker a rebel hero, or a terrorist threat to order? Before the Empire blew up an entire planet to make a point, it was a fairly valid question.
  - m0zg 6y ago
    Please explain how a white woman torching a police cruiser advances _any_ goals other than increasing the dramatically underrepresented white female prison population. Please also mention which other types of crime you consider conducive to rectifying the situation in any meaningful way.
    - coffeemaniac 6y ago
      How would you feel if someone set your car on fire? Probably like someone doesn't appreciate you very much, right? Well this is how they want the city to feel about their police force. It also demonstrates that by and large, police don't prevent chaos and property damage. Most of the time, people simply decide not to do this, and when they decide they want to, police are largely powerless to stop them. This should lead others to more broadly question whether police are capable of stopping other bad actors, rather than merely reacting to them.
    - jethro_tell 6y ago
      Not a full study, but when people were kneeling to draw attention, it poled at about 30% for 60% against 10% undecided. When people burned down the police precinct in Minneapolis and documented the unwarranted police violence, it polled at about 60% for and 30% against. I don't know why, but as a general rule with people, if it bleeds, it leads. And that's what's worked here.
    - fzeroracer 6y ago
      The opposite side of the equation is how does the police slashing tires and breaking civilian property advance their goal beyond dramatically increasing the levels of anger towards them? If she's going to jail for torching a car, then will the officers that committed similar property damage also be going to jail?
  - coffeemaniac 6y ago
    To expand on your explanation -- not only did kneeling not work, it was roundly mocked and derided by even progressives. It turns out, Americans pay attention when you start smashing property and taking flatscreen TVs.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
    > Luke Skywalker a rebel hero, or a terrorist threat to order Given episodes 7-9, Luke is a terroristic threat to order. After destroying the existing order, he failed to establish anything better and it quickly devolved into what we see in 7. And he also failed to kill the main villain which meant that all the chaos and death that he was responsible for had no offsetting good.
- coffeemaniac 6y ago
  In America right now there are ongoing protests and riots over the conduct of domestic police departments, specifically their proclivity toward extrajudicial execution and battery of black people in the streets. Damaging police property including their cars and precincts is a powerful (if legally risky) expression of that anger.
  - rafaelreinert 6y ago
    We are On 21st century, we know violence doesn’t stop violence, crime doesn’t stop crime. People should use modern tools to reduce racial issues. Like voting or social media’s, never burn a state property. Tax money could be used for better things But now the police department will buy 2 more cars.
    - wayneftw 6y ago
      The revolution may not be televised... but couldn’t it be streamed? I want to see people use live streaming to debate first, but then organize so effectively to just swarm on the old systems to make change. People need to move faster.
      - pmiller2 6y ago
        The debate is over. You and I weren’t invited.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >We are On 21st century, we know violence doesn’t stop violence, crime doesn’t stop crime. No, we don't know that. Historically it has been violence that stopped violence, and crime (like toppling an unjust government, breaking segregation laws, etc) that stopped crime. >People should use modern tools to reduce racial issues. Like voting or social media’s, never burn a state property. Yeah, they've tried blogging about it. There are also tons of books on the matter, vlogs, articles, etc. They voted Obama twice. Didn't work. A few months of angry riots and a few burned down police departments though, could send a very clear message to politicians and police chiefs, and help change laws to restrict police abuse.
- coldtea 6y ago
  So? Some people consider police bad, either at specific instances (some policemen/departments at some times doing bad things) or inherently (the police as an institution in general), and have been fighting against them for centuries... Some people think police should pay for the abuses that they regularly and without punishment do. Some others think police should stop existing in general, or exist only in a very limited capacity, or be replaced by citizen patrols, and several other varieties... So, that morality and cause... Doesn't have to agree with yours to be a morality, and even less so to be a cause...
  - buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
    Their beliefs are irrelevant. You don't get to break laws and due process just because of your beliefs and anger. How many mass shootings have we seen from people with "beliefs". Stop trying to justify people burning cars just because they don't get one they want right away.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >Their beliefs are irrelevant. You don't get to break laws and due process just because of your beliefs and anger. Yes you do. You might not get away with it, but that's not really pertinent. In fact historically most change happened through people breaking laws because of their beliefs and anger. And in every past society, like ours, most thought its laws are the apex of law-making, and should never be challenged or broken in anger, nor its law agents assaulted etc. Only history doesn't work that way.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      Yes, you do get to break the law after working inside the system fails. You know this country was founded by people breaking the laws of England, right?

loeg 6y ago

What makes you think every person knows the mandatory minimum sentencing for every single crime?

catalogia 6y ago
I doubt many non-lawyers know precisely what the penalty for arson is. However I do think it's general knowledge that arson is considered a serious crime with serious penalties. Arson in the general case is easily the worst sort of property crime since it often goes hand-in-hand with murder. Granted, murder wasn't really a plausible outcome in this particular cause, but the general association between arson and murder is nevertheless commonly understood and arson is consequently understood to be a very serious matter, even when nobody gets hurt.

koyote 6y ago

Apparently she picked up an already burning piece of wood and threw it in. So it's less likely that she left the house that morning with the intent of torching cars. In the moment, with everyone and everthing going on around her, I doubt she was thinking rationally or even knew that torching a car would be a long prison sentence. (if someone asked me before reading this article, I would have assumed a large fine + some community service maybe; then again I am not American so I have no idea how sentences compare).

reaperducer 6y ago
In the moment, with everyone and everthing going on around her, I doubt she was thinking rationally or even knew that torching a car would be a long prison sentence "Everyone else was doing it" didn't fly with my mom, and probably won't get a pass from Judge Wapner, either.
- tejtm 6y ago
  It passes with enforcement among themselves
- koyote 6y ago
  Herd mentality is a thing though and I would not be surprised if a judge took that into account when sentencing.
  - hackermailman 6y ago
    It's much more likely you will be made the example, because you were the only person caught torching two police cars. I realize these things are symbolic and all but anybody who's actually been to a prison would never recklessly endanger their freedom wasting it on burning taxpayer money which is infinite in supply. Those cars will be replaced tomorrow while you go to prison for years. If you want to bring down the system get a majority of people to stop paying taxes then you get the Bernie Madoff club fed don't arson a cruiser you're just playing into the state's hands and getting a violent offender custody status now you have to fend for yourself against experienced violent criminals constantly trying to steal your commissary or provoke you into doing more time. It's not just that you go to prison, it's that you get more time added as a 'normal' non career criminal who now has to deal with prof criminals daily or getting crossed out from work assignments by guards who are constantly on your ass and decide to increase your time or worse send you to a more high security prison where you are almost guaranteed to do more time. Anybody thinking of going outside and playing anarchist should know what they're getting themselves into, wait until your cellmate tells you that they're getting out in 2 months and you have to hold their contraband and weapons or the guards decide to put you in a high security yard because you're in there for something ridiculous like 'terroristic threats and arson'. You don't ever get out on schedule

beervirus 6y ago

People do irrational things sometimes, story at 10.

jackpirate 6y ago

My reaction to those numbers is different. 5 years seems absurdly large to me for a spontaneous act of vandalism that cost the tax payers max $100,000.

ByteJockey 6y ago
Fire is probably the key element here. There have been instances in the past where fires set have spread and killed numerous people. People get freaked out and push for harsher sentences. I have a hard time imagining smashing cars would result in that harsh of a sentence.

jxramos 6y ago

So did the gal plead guilty already? Has she been arraigned yet, I couldn't make it out.

drocer88 6y ago
More info here: https://www.inquirer.com/news/philly-protests-arrests-fbi-lore-elisabeth-blumenthal-george-floyd-20200617.html https://www.inquirer.com/news/philly-protests-arrests-fbi-lo... Philly Inquirer article has more on other cases where "alleged arsonists" are being caught via social media posts.

pnw_hazor 6y ago

I don't know what the actual charges are, I can't seem to find a copy of the criminal complaint. But the DOJ press release included: "If convicted, the defendant faces a maximum possible sentence of eighty years in prison, followed by three years of supervised release, and a fine of up to $500,000." She might be charged with terrorism crimes, but either way it looks bad for her. At least a felony - even without prison time that will sting.

awtawtwat3aw 6y ago

this is mental illness, logic does not play a role here. purge these radicals, please!