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> The goal shouldn't be "does a human fully understand the whole thing" but "is it proven to be true?" > [...] > But no one needs to "understand everything".
by pmiller2 6y ago
> The goal shouldn't be "does a human fully understand the whole thing" but "is it proven to be true?"
> [...]
> But no one needs to "understand everything".
Coming from a pure math background, I have to respectfully disagree.
There is a serious debate in the philosophy of mathematics about what, precisely, is a proof. My own, and many others' view is roughly this:
> Proofs are stories that convince suitably qualified others that a certain statement is true.
> If I present you with a proof, and you have the appropriate background knowledge and ability, you can – usually with some time and effort – as a result of reading my story, become convinced that what I claim is true.
> But if you take that as your working definition of proof, you have to acknowledge it is fundamentally about communication, not truth. In particular, whether an argument classifies as a proof depends as much on the intended reader as on its creator. [0]
Many mathematicians do not consider a theorem to be "proved" until they understand why it is true. The four color theorem is a prime example of this. By now, literally every graph theorist considers the statement to be logically correct, but there are quite a few who would say that the computer verifications that are out there don't quite constitute "proof" for them.
The problem is that these computer-based verifications are simply not conceptually accessible to the majority of working graph theorists who might want to know how the proof works. I haven't personally looked at any of them, but, I, as both a working SWE and someone with several graduate courses in graph theory, including topological graph theory, cannot honestly can't say that they would be accessible to me. The "story," to reference the Keith Devlin quote above, is written in a language that mathematicians simply do not understand.
There are other issues, but this is the most fundamental. For instance, mathematicians highly value proofs that themselves offer insight into why the theorem should be true. They value proofs that offer new techniques to solve other problems (i.e. abstraction). While one can get this from a computer proof, it is far, far more difficult to extract these things from code than it is from traditional proofs one would see in a journal.
The bottom line is that no, that is not "where we need to go," because that is simply not how mathematics functions.
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[0]: https://www.mathvalues.org/masterblog/what-is-a-mathematical-proof https://www.mathvalues.org/masterblog/what-is-a-mathematical...
- ur-whale 6y ago>Coming from a pure math background, I have to respectfully disagree. Coming from an engineering background, I have to respectfully disagree. What matters to me most with Math is its predictive power When a theorem is proven, it is something I can build on: it won't crumble, and any edifice resting on that foundation is guaranteed to be stable. Whether I am convinced at a gut level that the proposition is true is basically poetry and matters very little. If the four color theorem was proven by machines, it actually is better than if a bunch of humans feel good about the proof, the likelihood of it delivering predictable behavior is all that matters, and for this I trust the machine way more that a bunch of poets feeling good about themselves.
- pmiller2 6y agoYou don't care about mathematics in the sense that the word describes what mathematicians do, then. You care about physics. There's a distinct difference. Mathematics predicts nothing; it simply illuminates what is already there.
- dwheeler 6y agoCurrent mathematics is an untrustworthy flashlight. A claimed proof can be later found false, toppling all built on it. If we want illumination, we need better. The standard for proof acceptance should become formal verification. Mathematicians are simply no longer emough if your goal is certainty.
- ur-whale 6y ago> You care about physics. No, that's not what I meant. I am a computer engineer not a structural one. When I talk about building, I mean code, and making sure it does what it's supposed to. Unless you count algorithms and their behavior to fall under the umbrella of physics, of course. Mathematics most certainly does help predict what the behavior of my code will be. It's really not about illumination, it's about taking monster shortcuts in my code because a solidly proved theorem allows me to. > the word describes what mathematicians do, I think you just described what you think mathematicians do. I do know a number of pure mathematicians who think of their trade rather differently, namely they are trying to build useful math. > it simply illuminates what is already there. Now, we're strictly entering the domain of faith-based thinking. Are things already there only to be discovered, or do we invent them? Does the tree make a noise when it falls in the forest when no one is there to hear it fall? Pick your religion.