4 ms·

Thanks for the answer. I don't fully follow the first part though. Perfect being the enemy of the good, extreme purity tests, inability to compromise etc, I agr

Thanks for the answer. I don't fully follow the first part though. Perfect being the enemy of the good, extreme purity tests, inability to compromise etc, I agree these are all common characteristics of the left. But how are these being exploited by the right? It's not like in the USA the Democrats make a proposal and then Trump comes back with, "but you didn't go far enough! that's a compromise, you shouldn't propose anything until it's perfect". It's not like the purity tests are being instigated by Trump. They're all self inflicted. I agree that Trump's super-power is inability to feel 'shame', at least not shame about the things his opponents want him to be ashamed of. Australia and New Zealand are not necessarily CV success stories. NZ seems to have locked down so hard and early that now it can't re-open: witness the panic over the two arrivals who were infected but not stopped. Unless they intend to stay in quarantine forever they will eventually go through the same thing as the rest of the world - really they should have been doing it now, when it's summer (a far more likely explanation for why down under isn't really badly hit given the well known effects of sunlight and vitamin D on the virus). In my view the only astonishing failure around coronavirus was the fact that society reacted at all. Deaths-wise it appears very similar to a regular flu season compressed in time somewhat, and with some more deaths added on top caused by the lockdown. Trump's response was essentially to go for federalisation and let the states do their own thing, this has worked out quite well in the sense that it makes clear the wide disparities in local leadership (and it's not like the USA could isolate itself forever either).

sjwright 6y ago
> Australia and New Zealand are not necessarily CV success stories. That's an utterly wacky assertion. In what possible metric are they not a success? New Zealand has beaten the virus and is now completely reopened domestically. Australia has mostly beaten the virus and is mostly back to normal for most people. If NZ and Australia aren't success stories, I'm curious, what would a success story look like? > NZ seems to have locked down so hard and early that now it can't re-open That's just factually false. NZ is completely open in absolutely every respect other than international travel. Australia is mostly open as well, other than for long distance travel. Are you saying that NZ and Australia aren't success stories because they're still closed to international travel? Perhaps your argument is that we've been TOO successful relative to the rest of the world? Perhaps we should have let the disease run rampant bit longer.
- thu2111 6y ago
  Yes, by "open" I obviously mean "people can enter and exit it". A country with indefinitely closed borders is not "open", it's North Korea. Perhaps your argument is that we've been TOO successful relative to the rest of the world? Perhaps we should have let the disease run rampant bit longer. There's no success in merely delaying the inevitable. It's an infectious disease, it can't be kept out forever. The NZ strategy is effectively to seal itself off from the world and hope some cure or vaccine is developed before it re-opens, which is a terrible decision given that these sorts of viruses often never have vaccines. Until the NZ population gets over its fear, there will continue to be events like this one: https://globalnews.ca/news/7079388/new-zealand-third-new-case-coronavirus/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7079388/new-zealand-third-new-cas... NZ will eventually re-open and let the disease go, because it's not actually any worse than many other viruses. Not because it's some sort of genius success story.
  - sjwright 6y ago
    > by "open" I obviously mean "people can enter and exit it". Most countries have their borders partially or fully closed to international travel. The only difference between New Zealand and most other countries is that New Zealand isn't also dealing with a rampant pandemic. > A country with indefinitely closed borders is not "open", it's North Korea. Comparing New Zealand to North Korea is absurd and demonstrates that you're not being serious. Something like 90—95% of all people on this planet will never travel across a passport control border during their entire lifetime. A short term, medically rational restriction on international travel only restricts the "freedom" of the most affluent few percent. > Until the NZ population gets over its fear What fear? I'm starting to wonder if you think that the only thing worth doing in New Zealand involves international travel. I suppose we're all in a big North Korea called Earth because we can't hop onto a rocket into outer space.
    - thu2111 6y ago
      Borders are opening up again. I crossed two borders in Europe yesterday. No disasters yet. A short term, medically rational restriction on international travel only restricts the "freedom" of the most affluent few percent. A few percent? Tell that to the budget airlines. It's not even medically rational. Before COVID the WHO said border closures were "not recommended under any circumstances": https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/329438/9789241516839-eng.pdf#page=9 https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/329438/9789... (see table 1) The medical establishment just makes this stuff up as they go along. Best to avoid arguments based on what they think is rational.

sjwright 6y ago

> Australia and New Zealand are not necessarily CV success stories. That's an utterly wacky assertion. In what possible metric are they not a success? New Zealand has beaten the virus and is now completely reopened domestically. Australia has mostly beaten the virus and is mostly back to normal for most people. If NZ and Australia aren't success stories, I'm curious, what would a success story look like? > NZ seems to have locked down so hard and early that now it can't re-open That's just factually false. NZ is completely open in absolutely every respect other than international travel. Australia is mostly open as well, other than for long distance travel. Are you saying that NZ and Australia aren't success stories because they're still closed to international travel? Perhaps your argument is that we've been TOO successful relative to the rest of the world? Perhaps we should have let the disease run rampant bit longer.

thu2111 6y ago
Yes, by "open" I obviously mean "people can enter and exit it". A country with indefinitely closed borders is not "open", it's North Korea. Perhaps your argument is that we've been TOO successful relative to the rest of the world? Perhaps we should have let the disease run rampant bit longer. There's no success in merely delaying the inevitable. It's an infectious disease, it can't be kept out forever. The NZ strategy is effectively to seal itself off from the world and hope some cure or vaccine is developed before it re-opens, which is a terrible decision given that these sorts of viruses often never have vaccines. Until the NZ population gets over its fear, there will continue to be events like this one: https://globalnews.ca/news/7079388/new-zealand-third-new-case-coronavirus/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7079388/new-zealand-third-new-cas... NZ will eventually re-open and let the disease go, because it's not actually any worse than many other viruses. Not because it's some sort of genius success story.
- sjwright 6y ago
  > by "open" I obviously mean "people can enter and exit it". Most countries have their borders partially or fully closed to international travel. The only difference between New Zealand and most other countries is that New Zealand isn't also dealing with a rampant pandemic. > A country with indefinitely closed borders is not "open", it's North Korea. Comparing New Zealand to North Korea is absurd and demonstrates that you're not being serious. Something like 90—95% of all people on this planet will never travel across a passport control border during their entire lifetime. A short term, medically rational restriction on international travel only restricts the "freedom" of the most affluent few percent. > Until the NZ population gets over its fear What fear? I'm starting to wonder if you think that the only thing worth doing in New Zealand involves international travel. I suppose we're all in a big North Korea called Earth because we can't hop onto a rocket into outer space.
  - thu2111 6y ago
    Borders are opening up again. I crossed two borders in Europe yesterday. No disasters yet. A short term, medically rational restriction on international travel only restricts the "freedom" of the most affluent few percent. A few percent? Tell that to the budget airlines. It's not even medically rational. Before COVID the WHO said border closures were "not recommended under any circumstances": https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/329438/9789241516839-eng.pdf#page=9 https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/329438/9789... (see table 1) The medical establishment just makes this stuff up as they go along. Best to avoid arguments based on what they think is rational.