9 ms·

WhatsApp has introduced a feature that allows users to send and receive money

94 points by iafrikan 6y ago

ipnon 6y ago
I see vertical integration increasingly as the only viable Big Tech strategy. Chat apps have existed since the early internet, but never one as popular as WhatsApp that can make payments. The outcome if this trend were to persist would be a small group of WeChat style omni apps.
- samfisher83 6y ago
  If Fb could have turned Whatsapp into WeChat they would have increased their market cap a few 100 billion.
  - ta17711771 6y ago
    What do you think they're (slowly, to avoid antitrust attention) doing? Game streaming, dating, selling used shit, payments, workplace "social" platform, video hosting&subscribing, etc. They're on their way.
    - pintxo 6y ago
      ... to become AOL
  - Lammy 6y ago
    But that’s already their Messenger play :v
tinyhouse 6y ago
Smart. But is it too late? Payment apps such as Venmo and others became very popular in recent years. Everyone already has one installed on their phone and connected to their bank account. Although at least Venmo is such a crappy and stupid app that maybe it's not too late. This just shows again how slow big companies are. The idea of allowing payments within whatsapp has been talked about for at least 3 years now. They are only now starting to experiment with it.
- Max_Mustermann 6y ago
  Venmo is irrelevant in (all?) most of the markets where Whatsapp is utterly dominating. In February it was reported that the platform has 2 billion active users.
  - tinyhouse 6y ago
    Right. But all these countries have a popular payment app similar to Venmo that all people use. For example, in Israel where whatsapp is as popular as in Brazil, there's an app called Bit everyone is using, where you can send money using phone numbers. I'm sure India and Brazil have similar apps.
    - Max_Mustermann 6y ago
      I seriously doubt that, I've lived in 3 of the countries (fairly large ones) where WhatsApp is THE communications and in all of those, at least to my knowledge, most (mostly young) people send money electronically through banks, sometimes more modern digital versions like Nubank in Brazil, but there's no all-encompassing default solution.
      - joeberon 6y ago
        But in the US banking is very archaic and so bank transfers are not instant and I think even involve a fee unlike in most countries
    - joeberon 6y ago
      FYI there is no similar equivalent here in the UK, so I wouldn't assume...
      - JoeMalt 6y ago
        Unlike a lot of countries, the UK has free and near-instant bank transfers which seem to be a de facto standard for things like splitting bills with friends. Incidentally I tried to use Venmo while in the US, but the app was geo-blocked so I couldn’t install it with a Google Play account set to the UK.
xkgt 6y ago
Wechat has had this for ages.
- machiaweliczny 6y ago
  But are they supporting many countries? Whatsapp is used in half of the world, do I guess handling payments might be harder, unless it's for US only.
  - andylynch 6y ago
    Looking from the UK, and using app like Revolut and Transferwise, my perception is that the US is relatively harder for a global firm, given payments appear to be regulated there at the state level (especially compared to Europe having SEPA). Running a payments processor is complicated and an international one much more so!! Interestingly they seem to have piloted in India and are launching with Brazil, which makes some sense given the size of their domestic markets.
  - xkgt 6y ago
    So this payment feature that Whatsapp is rolling out works internationally? Even when WeChat launched payment in HK market, they had to go with a separate wallet for HK transactions. My point is that allowing payments within a single market is a pretty old feature and Whatsapp is late to the party.
- fullstop 6y ago
  Along with unintentional back doors! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XcodeGhost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XcodeGhost
eqtn 6y ago
WhatsApp in India introduced this 2 years back via UPI (Unified Payments Interface). Although UPI payments are popular in India via GooglePay, PayTM, etc, payments via WhatsApp is rare.
- namanaggarwal 6y ago
  Payments via Whatsapp is rare because of a reason. That functionality is in beta and only available to a million users. They are stuck with getting regulatory approvals for 2 years.
solotronics 6y ago
does anybody know how this actually works? is it a database and its settled through corportations whatsapp has setup in each country?
- pascoej 6y ago
  They partnered with local issuing banks (Banco do Brasil, Nubank, and Sicredi) and payment processors (Cielo.)
reversii 6y ago
Curiously, their Android app database (msgstore.db) has had a "pay_transactions" table, and a "payment_transaction_id" column on the "messages" table, present for about a couple of years now. I guess they've been planning/testing this for a while.
- mckee1 6y ago
  They've been testing it in India for around 2 years, but had been held up in releasing it more widely there by regulators. https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/whatsapp-pay-to-launch-in-india-soon-gets-approval-from-npci-1644208-2020-02-07 https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/whatsapp-pay...
iamben 6y ago
I think this is a pretty smart play. I (and a lot of Brits, I'd guess) use WhatsApp about every 7 minutes. Sure I could send money through PayPal, or bank transfer or any of the other apps I have on my phone that facilitate it - but WhatsApp would make those payments to friends just that little bit more convenient. Why open PayPal? Why make my mate open PayPal? I'll just send it next time I check all my chat groups... This is probably also a pretty smooth intro to Libra. Start with "we'll send X pounds via Libra instant transfer: £X = XL", end with "You have XL in your account. Withdraw to £".
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  In Canada, bank transfers are so seamless that I see no chance of this ever gaining traction. It's called Interac e-Transfer, and all domestic banks are part of it. All you need is access to online banking, so it's universally available. It's free, too (for personal accounts). The way it works is the sender signs into their online banking and initiates an e-transfer. The sender doesn't need the recipient's banking details, only a phone number or email address. The recipient follows the link in the email/SMS message they received, signs into their online banking, and selects the account to deposit the funds into. The entire process is immediate. If the recipient has registered that email address or phone number to auto-deposit into a specific account, all the sender has to do is type in the amount and hit Send. Otherwise, they will have to create a short question with a secret one-word answer that the recipient needs to answer correctly. How could WhatsApp payments be better than that? Not everyone has WhatsApp, and if you want to use it you'll need to go through the hassle of linking your bank account.
  - alisonatwork 6y ago
    The hassle of linking your bank account is more of a hassle in countries where that isn't necessarily easy to do. (For example to link an internet banking account to your traditional bank in Canada, you usually need to send a personal check in snail mail.) In China, where mobile payments are ubiquitous, the process of linking your bank account is just typing in your name and account number, and entering the one time pass code your bank just sent over SMS. Now you can pay for everything - not just individuals on your contact list, but literally anyone who also has the app installed - just by scanning QR code and entering your PIN. The recipient doesn't need to sign in or confirm anything, it's just done. Don't underestimate the convenience of this setup. I do like that Interac eTransfer doesn't force people to install a proprietary app to transfer money, but can you really see it replacing cash in a grocery store or helping people split the bill at a bar?
pr91 6y ago
Whatsapp has had this feature in India for a while. It uses UPI (Unified Payments Interface)
- namanaggarwal 6y ago
  In beta. They are stuck with regulatory approvals to release this to masses
hckr_news 6y ago
Is Facebook allowing developers to build apps on top of this payment system? API open to developers? Perhaps integrating Libra with some form of ROSCA(money pool) app and decrease the risk of cash on hand Not sure if I've seen anything that addresses this.
BiteCode_dev 6y ago
WhatsApp is controlled by Facebook, and they already centralize a gigantic amount of personnal data. Their moral track record has also been consistently bad. They were part of the PRISM program. They meddle with politics. They are rich and powerful. The chinese WeChat example shown us how convenient a popular chat app coupled with a payment system can be, and how quickly an entire society can adopt it. I think this feature should be considered as a threat to users, and be avoided, while actively and strongly, but respectfully, advising people around us to do the same.
- ima_banana 6y ago
  Just because you care and are right about the advice doesn't mean those needing the advice care enough to receive it
  - BiteCode_dev 6y ago
    Yes, when you have a lot of difficulties in your life, it's hard to add to it the burden of thinking about the virtual services you use. It's my privileged position to be able to do so. Doesn't mean I should not advice for it though. It's an important message, it should be spread, as long as we are not guilt tripping people.
- coronadisaster 6y ago
  > They were part of the PRISM program. Do you think that they longer are part of it or its successor?
  - BiteCode_dev 6y ago
    I think it's very likely, given the Patriot Act has been renew several times since 9/11 despite the fact it was supposed to be a temporary measure. But I doubt we'll get another Snowden anytime soon to prove it.
- throwaway103840 6y ago
  I am rotfl... If you think the Chinese government does not track people through wechat or any service, must be because either you're part of the Chinese government or blind
Lordarminius 6y ago
I DON'T WANT IT.
CryptoPunk 6y ago
Status is the decentralized alternative to Whatsapp [1] and cryptocurrency is the decentralized alternative to Facebook Pay. However I think Status and cryptocurrency are nowhere near ready for mass-adoption. I don't use Status, because it hasn't implemented private payments yet. Unmasked payments on the blockchain can completely compromise your privacy. [1] https://decrypt.co/25629/status-wants-to-be-the-worlds-most-private-instant-messaging-app?amp=1 https://decrypt.co/25629/status-wants-to-be-the-worlds-most-...

94 points by iafrikan 6y ago

I see vertical integration increasingly as the only viable Big Tech strategy. Chat apps have existed since the early internet, but never one as popular as WhatsApp that can make payments. The outcome if this trend were to persist would be a small group of WeChat style omni apps.

samfisher83 6y ago
If Fb could have turned Whatsapp into WeChat they would have increased their market cap a few 100 billion.
- ta17711771 6y ago
  What do you think they're (slowly, to avoid antitrust attention) doing? Game streaming, dating, selling used shit, payments, workplace "social" platform, video hosting&subscribing, etc. They're on their way.
  - pintxo 6y ago
    ... to become AOL
- Lammy 6y ago
  But that’s already their Messenger play :v

tinyhouse 6y ago

Smart. But is it too late? Payment apps such as Venmo and others became very popular in recent years. Everyone already has one installed on their phone and connected to their bank account. Although at least Venmo is such a crappy and stupid app that maybe it's not too late. This just shows again how slow big companies are. The idea of allowing payments within whatsapp has been talked about for at least 3 years now. They are only now starting to experiment with it.

Max_Mustermann 6y ago
Venmo is irrelevant in (all?) most of the markets where Whatsapp is utterly dominating. In February it was reported that the platform has 2 billion active users.
- tinyhouse 6y ago
  Right. But all these countries have a popular payment app similar to Venmo that all people use. For example, in Israel where whatsapp is as popular as in Brazil, there's an app called Bit everyone is using, where you can send money using phone numbers. I'm sure India and Brazil have similar apps.
  - Max_Mustermann 6y ago
    I seriously doubt that, I've lived in 3 of the countries (fairly large ones) where WhatsApp is THE communications and in all of those, at least to my knowledge, most (mostly young) people send money electronically through banks, sometimes more modern digital versions like Nubank in Brazil, but there's no all-encompassing default solution.
    - joeberon 6y ago
      But in the US banking is very archaic and so bank transfers are not instant and I think even involve a fee unlike in most countries
  - joeberon 6y ago
    FYI there is no similar equivalent here in the UK, so I wouldn't assume...
    - JoeMalt 6y ago
      Unlike a lot of countries, the UK has free and near-instant bank transfers which seem to be a de facto standard for things like splitting bills with friends. Incidentally I tried to use Venmo while in the US, but the app was geo-blocked so I couldn’t install it with a Google Play account set to the UK.

xkgt 6y ago

Wechat has had this for ages.

machiaweliczny 6y ago
But are they supporting many countries? Whatsapp is used in half of the world, do I guess handling payments might be harder, unless it's for US only.
- andylynch 6y ago
  Looking from the UK, and using app like Revolut and Transferwise, my perception is that the US is relatively harder for a global firm, given payments appear to be regulated there at the state level (especially compared to Europe having SEPA). Running a payments processor is complicated and an international one much more so!! Interestingly they seem to have piloted in India and are launching with Brazil, which makes some sense given the size of their domestic markets.
- xkgt 6y ago
  So this payment feature that Whatsapp is rolling out works internationally? Even when WeChat launched payment in HK market, they had to go with a separate wallet for HK transactions. My point is that allowing payments within a single market is a pretty old feature and Whatsapp is late to the party.
fullstop 6y ago
Along with unintentional back doors! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XcodeGhost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XcodeGhost

eqtn 6y ago

WhatsApp in India introduced this 2 years back via UPI (Unified Payments Interface). Although UPI payments are popular in India via GooglePay, PayTM, etc, payments via WhatsApp is rare.

namanaggarwal 6y ago
Payments via Whatsapp is rare because of a reason. That functionality is in beta and only available to a million users. They are stuck with getting regulatory approvals for 2 years.

solotronics 6y ago

does anybody know how this actually works? is it a database and its settled through corportations whatsapp has setup in each country?

pascoej 6y ago
They partnered with local issuing banks (Banco do Brasil, Nubank, and Sicredi) and payment processors (Cielo.)

reversii 6y ago

Curiously, their Android app database (msgstore.db) has had a "pay_transactions" table, and a "payment_transaction_id" column on the "messages" table, present for about a couple of years now. I guess they've been planning/testing this for a while.

mckee1 6y ago
They've been testing it in India for around 2 years, but had been held up in releasing it more widely there by regulators. https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/whatsapp-pay-to-launch-in-india-soon-gets-approval-from-npci-1644208-2020-02-07 https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/whatsapp-pay...

iamben 6y ago

I think this is a pretty smart play. I (and a lot of Brits, I'd guess) use WhatsApp about every 7 minutes. Sure I could send money through PayPal, or bank transfer or any of the other apps I have on my phone that facilitate it - but WhatsApp would make those payments to friends just that little bit more convenient. Why open PayPal? Why make my mate open PayPal? I'll just send it next time I check all my chat groups... This is probably also a pretty smooth intro to Libra. Start with "we'll send X pounds via Libra instant transfer: £X = XL", end with "You have XL in your account. Withdraw to £".

frosted-flakes 6y ago
In Canada, bank transfers are so seamless that I see no chance of this ever gaining traction. It's called Interac e-Transfer, and all domestic banks are part of it. All you need is access to online banking, so it's universally available. It's free, too (for personal accounts). The way it works is the sender signs into their online banking and initiates an e-transfer. The sender doesn't need the recipient's banking details, only a phone number or email address. The recipient follows the link in the email/SMS message they received, signs into their online banking, and selects the account to deposit the funds into. The entire process is immediate. If the recipient has registered that email address or phone number to auto-deposit into a specific account, all the sender has to do is type in the amount and hit Send. Otherwise, they will have to create a short question with a secret one-word answer that the recipient needs to answer correctly. How could WhatsApp payments be better than that? Not everyone has WhatsApp, and if you want to use it you'll need to go through the hassle of linking your bank account.
- alisonatwork 6y ago
  The hassle of linking your bank account is more of a hassle in countries where that isn't necessarily easy to do. (For example to link an internet banking account to your traditional bank in Canada, you usually need to send a personal check in snail mail.) In China, where mobile payments are ubiquitous, the process of linking your bank account is just typing in your name and account number, and entering the one time pass code your bank just sent over SMS. Now you can pay for everything - not just individuals on your contact list, but literally anyone who also has the app installed - just by scanning QR code and entering your PIN. The recipient doesn't need to sign in or confirm anything, it's just done. Don't underestimate the convenience of this setup. I do like that Interac eTransfer doesn't force people to install a proprietary app to transfer money, but can you really see it replacing cash in a grocery store or helping people split the bill at a bar?

pr91 6y ago

Whatsapp has had this feature in India for a while. It uses UPI (Unified Payments Interface)

namanaggarwal 6y ago
In beta. They are stuck with regulatory approvals to release this to masses

hckr_news 6y ago

Is Facebook allowing developers to build apps on top of this payment system? API open to developers? Perhaps integrating Libra with some form of ROSCA(money pool) app and decrease the risk of cash on hand Not sure if I've seen anything that addresses this.

BiteCode_dev 6y ago

WhatsApp is controlled by Facebook, and they already centralize a gigantic amount of personnal data. Their moral track record has also been consistently bad. They were part of the PRISM program. They meddle with politics. They are rich and powerful. The chinese WeChat example shown us how convenient a popular chat app coupled with a payment system can be, and how quickly an entire society can adopt it. I think this feature should be considered as a threat to users, and be avoided, while actively and strongly, but respectfully, advising people around us to do the same.

ima_banana 6y ago
Just because you care and are right about the advice doesn't mean those needing the advice care enough to receive it
- BiteCode_dev 6y ago
  Yes, when you have a lot of difficulties in your life, it's hard to add to it the burden of thinking about the virtual services you use. It's my privileged position to be able to do so. Doesn't mean I should not advice for it though. It's an important message, it should be spread, as long as we are not guilt tripping people.
coronadisaster 6y ago
> They were part of the PRISM program. Do you think that they longer are part of it or its successor?
- BiteCode_dev 6y ago
  I think it's very likely, given the Patriot Act has been renew several times since 9/11 despite the fact it was supposed to be a temporary measure. But I doubt we'll get another Snowden anytime soon to prove it.
throwaway103840 6y ago
I am rotfl... If you think the Chinese government does not track people through wechat or any service, must be because either you're part of the Chinese government or blind

Lordarminius 6y ago

I DON'T WANT IT.

CryptoPunk 6y ago

Status is the decentralized alternative to Whatsapp [1] and cryptocurrency is the decentralized alternative to Facebook Pay. However I think Status and cryptocurrency are nowhere near ready for mass-adoption. I don't use Status, because it hasn't implemented private payments yet. Unmasked payments on the blockchain can completely compromise your privacy. [1] https://decrypt.co/25629/status-wants-to-be-the-worlds-most-private-instant-messaging-app?amp=1 https://decrypt.co/25629/status-wants-to-be-the-worlds-most-...