4 ms·

> The very fact they find it necessary to use a different word to describe themselves, "expats", than what they call foreigners who live in their countries, "im

by bmn__ 6y ago

> The very fact they find it necessary to use a different word to describe themselves, "expats", than what they call foreigners who live in their countries, "immigrants", shows that they do not at all consider themselves to be in any way similar. I was taught these are two words for different concepts. An immigrant expects to take permanent residence in a foreign country, an expatriate – temporarily. The former doing it nearly always out of his own volition, while the latter could very well be sent for duty, to varying degrees. I do not have any sympathy for immigrants refusing to integrate, but I don't think that an expatriate should necessarily come to be held to the same standard.

javieranton 6y ago
Expat = white/pale skin immigrant. Racial entitlement continues to this day. Notice how only white people ever choose to consider themselves to be "expats"
- eythian 6y ago
  That's certainly not my experience, as someone who relocated to a European capital for work. I work with people from all over with various skin colours, and pretty much everyone everyone self-identifies as an expat. The main difference seems to be whether they're people moving there to make a new life in a new place, and the work is secondary vs. it's the work that gets them to move (and if you move for work, it's probable that you're being paid more, so have the luxury to have the option to move somewhere else in a comparatively short time.)
  - buran77 6y ago
    > everyone self-identifies as an expat Of course they do. The question is how does everyone around you see you. It does make a bit of a difference if the job lead to switching countries (mostly "expat"), or switching country lead to getting a job (mostly "immigrant"). But this detail is buried pretty deep, people will most likely first find out where you're from (by asking, or accent, etc.) and that will determine their first and longest lasting opinion. Black Americans in the UK are considered expats while white Bosnians are considered immigrants.
    - eythian 6y ago
      I was addressing the original point which was "Notice how only white people ever choose to consider themselves to be "expats"", which in my experience is not true. > people will most likely first find out where you're from (by asking, or accent, etc.) and that will determine their first and longest lasting opinion. Perhaps. Where I live there are a lot of Turkish immigrants, for example (mostly they/their parents moved in the 60s/70s.) At the same time I work with people who are Turkish who moved here for work, often in the past several years. I suspect that given the situation, the latter would still be considered expats and the former immigrants.
      - buran77 6y ago
        > there are a lot of Turkish immigrants This exemplifies my point perfectly. Even though you go on to write that some were born in the country, they are still "Turkish immigrants" not "expats" or [that country's] citizens. Some may be considered expats by you now but walking down the street I can assure you people see "immigrants". Say "British immigrants", or "US immigrants", or "German immigrants" and see how that rolls off the tongue. Now say "Polish immigrants", or "African immigrants", or "Mexican immigrants". English has this distinct connotation for the word "immigrant" and it's associated with individuals overwhelmingly based on their country of origin (the poorer the country, the more "immigranty" the person). I am a white male coming from a reasonably developed and civilized second world country (literal and figurative definitions apply) to follow a high end job. Yet the second I open my mouth I am very much an "immigrant" in the eyes of most locals.
        skissane 6y ago
        > English has this distinct connotation for the word "immigrant" and it's associated with individuals overwhelmingly based on their country of origin (the poorer the country, the more "immigranty" the person). I was born in Australia, my mother was born in Scotland. In my mind, that makes me a second generation immigrant. I never thought of my mother, or her parents, as "expatriates". A lot of Australians who immigrated from the UK and Ireland identified themselves as "immigrants" not "expatriates".
jacobush 6y ago
Both those you label as your "immigrants" and your "expats" ofter entertain the notion that they will eventuelly move back, but in reality often they don't. Meanwhile, the "expat" gets a free pass for being a general douche.
toyg 6y ago
> I was taught these are two words for different concepts. These are stories we tell ourselves to persuade us we're not "like them". Unsurprisingly, it's a term invented by the British Empire, when people with no prospects in the motherland (like George Orwell) would move to the colonies to make their fortune but wouldn't dream for a second of ever "going native". The amount of time they ended up spending there, or whether they even came back at all, was irrelevant.
buran77 6y ago
After living for many years in another country and being called an "immigrant", while hearing other foreigners being called "expats" I realized that people just create a mental rule for what each word means: coming from a rich country = expat, coming from a poor country = immigrant. So an American permanently living in the UK will be considered an expat. A polish will be called an immigrant. Despite the actual definition of the word, "immigrant" has a negative nuance artificially attached to it so people use it to this effect. In Europe I noticed that skin color makes less of a difference than "source country". Many British people will still treat African-American individuals as expats, and an Albanian as an immigrant, once they find out where they came from.
P-ala-din 6y ago
> I do not have any sympathy for immigrants refusing to integrate? what do you mean by integrate? are immigrants allowed to speak their native tongue, dress differently or act differently? does Integration to you mean the complete erasure of their past identities? because that what the German in the pub seems to think.
- jiggunjer 6y ago
  I think he refers to self isolation. Those immigrant communities mentioned tend to never marry any locals (not for lack supply, but because they reject western values) or attend local social events, despite speaking German.
- bmn__ 6y ago
  > what do you mean by integrate? […] what the German in the pub seems to think Don't you have sociology classes or political education in school? I just looked up the word to make sure and it turns out its meaning is almost the same to what I remembered, and it certainly is not a complete erasure as you allude to. Nice straw man, though. Man, must it be satisfying to topple it over!
  - P-ala-din 6y ago
    > Don't you have sociology classes or political education in school? yes, I've had an overly technical education but I fail to see how that's relevant. > I just looked up the word to make sure I feel like you misread my argument. "seems to think" means that I don't agree with him. Some people, including the person that this thread-tree is about (in my opinion) use integration when they mean cultural erasure. (aka assimilation) if people speaking/dressing differently in a train implies that they are not integrated (according to him). Than integration (according to him) implies that people do not speak/dress differently which I see as cultural erasure. And from my own experience, I've been told by a Turkish friend that he received cold stares and was yelled at for speaking Turkish with his daughter in public transportation (out of concern for her integration). Although, it's a common technique for each parent to speak a single language when you want to raise a bilingual child. and honestly, it's not that novel of an idea: - "In fact, integration has become a code word in some circles for intolerance and discrimination" - The Emerging Monoculture: Assimilation and the "model Minority" De William E et al - 'the older völkish notion of German national identity lurks behind calls for acculturation as a condition for social acceptance.In contemporary Germany, "integration" is a codeword for cultural assimilation, with a strong emphasis on learning the majority language and history.' - From the Bonn to the Berlin Republic: Germany at the Twentieth Anniversary of Unification. Jeffrey J. Anderson. Eric Langenbacher.

by bmn__ 6y ago

javieranton 6y ago

Expat = white/pale skin immigrant. Racial entitlement continues to this day. Notice how only white people ever choose to consider themselves to be "expats"

eythian 6y ago
That's certainly not my experience, as someone who relocated to a European capital for work. I work with people from all over with various skin colours, and pretty much everyone everyone self-identifies as an expat. The main difference seems to be whether they're people moving there to make a new life in a new place, and the work is secondary vs. it's the work that gets them to move (and if you move for work, it's probable that you're being paid more, so have the luxury to have the option to move somewhere else in a comparatively short time.)
- buran77 6y ago
  > everyone self-identifies as an expat Of course they do. The question is how does everyone around you see you. It does make a bit of a difference if the job lead to switching countries (mostly "expat"), or switching country lead to getting a job (mostly "immigrant"). But this detail is buried pretty deep, people will most likely first find out where you're from (by asking, or accent, etc.) and that will determine their first and longest lasting opinion. Black Americans in the UK are considered expats while white Bosnians are considered immigrants.
  - eythian 6y ago
    I was addressing the original point which was "Notice how only white people ever choose to consider themselves to be "expats"", which in my experience is not true. > people will most likely first find out where you're from (by asking, or accent, etc.) and that will determine their first and longest lasting opinion. Perhaps. Where I live there are a lot of Turkish immigrants, for example (mostly they/their parents moved in the 60s/70s.) At the same time I work with people who are Turkish who moved here for work, often in the past several years. I suspect that given the situation, the latter would still be considered expats and the former immigrants.
    - buran77 6y ago
      > there are a lot of Turkish immigrants This exemplifies my point perfectly. Even though you go on to write that some were born in the country, they are still "Turkish immigrants" not "expats" or [that country's] citizens. Some may be considered expats by you now but walking down the street I can assure you people see "immigrants". Say "British immigrants", or "US immigrants", or "German immigrants" and see how that rolls off the tongue. Now say "Polish immigrants", or "African immigrants", or "Mexican immigrants". English has this distinct connotation for the word "immigrant" and it's associated with individuals overwhelmingly based on their country of origin (the poorer the country, the more "immigranty" the person). I am a white male coming from a reasonably developed and civilized second world country (literal and figurative definitions apply) to follow a high end job. Yet the second I open my mouth I am very much an "immigrant" in the eyes of most locals.
      - skissane 6y ago
        > English has this distinct connotation for the word "immigrant" and it's associated with individuals overwhelmingly based on their country of origin (the poorer the country, the more "immigranty" the person). I was born in Australia, my mother was born in Scotland. In my mind, that makes me a second generation immigrant. I never thought of my mother, or her parents, as "expatriates". A lot of Australians who immigrated from the UK and Ireland identified themselves as "immigrants" not "expatriates".

jacobush 6y ago

Both those you label as your "immigrants" and your "expats" ofter entertain the notion that they will eventuelly move back, but in reality often they don't. Meanwhile, the "expat" gets a free pass for being a general douche.

toyg 6y ago

> I was taught these are two words for different concepts. These are stories we tell ourselves to persuade us we're not "like them". Unsurprisingly, it's a term invented by the British Empire, when people with no prospects in the motherland (like George Orwell) would move to the colonies to make their fortune but wouldn't dream for a second of ever "going native". The amount of time they ended up spending there, or whether they even came back at all, was irrelevant.

buran77 6y ago

After living for many years in another country and being called an "immigrant", while hearing other foreigners being called "expats" I realized that people just create a mental rule for what each word means: coming from a rich country = expat, coming from a poor country = immigrant. So an American permanently living in the UK will be considered an expat. A polish will be called an immigrant. Despite the actual definition of the word, "immigrant" has a negative nuance artificially attached to it so people use it to this effect. In Europe I noticed that skin color makes less of a difference than "source country". Many British people will still treat African-American individuals as expats, and an Albanian as an immigrant, once they find out where they came from.

P-ala-din 6y ago

> I do not have any sympathy for immigrants refusing to integrate? what do you mean by integrate? are immigrants allowed to speak their native tongue, dress differently or act differently? does Integration to you mean the complete erasure of their past identities? because that what the German in the pub seems to think.

jiggunjer 6y ago
I think he refers to self isolation. Those immigrant communities mentioned tend to never marry any locals (not for lack supply, but because they reject western values) or attend local social events, despite speaking German.
bmn__ 6y ago
> what do you mean by integrate? […] what the German in the pub seems to think Don't you have sociology classes or political education in school? I just looked up the word to make sure and it turns out its meaning is almost the same to what I remembered, and it certainly is not a complete erasure as you allude to. Nice straw man, though. Man, must it be satisfying to topple it over!
- P-ala-din 6y ago
  > Don't you have sociology classes or political education in school? yes, I've had an overly technical education but I fail to see how that's relevant. > I just looked up the word to make sure I feel like you misread my argument. "seems to think" means that I don't agree with him. Some people, including the person that this thread-tree is about (in my opinion) use integration when they mean cultural erasure. (aka assimilation) if people speaking/dressing differently in a train implies that they are not integrated (according to him). Than integration (according to him) implies that people do not speak/dress differently which I see as cultural erasure. And from my own experience, I've been told by a Turkish friend that he received cold stares and was yelled at for speaking Turkish with his daughter in public transportation (out of concern for her integration). Although, it's a common technique for each parent to speak a single language when you want to raise a bilingual child. and honestly, it's not that novel of an idea: - "In fact, integration has become a code word in some circles for intolerance and discrimination" - The Emerging Monoculture: Assimilation and the "model Minority" De William E et al - 'the older völkish notion of German national identity lurks behind calls for acculturation as a condition for social acceptance.In contemporary Germany, "integration" is a codeword for cultural assimilation, with a strong emphasis on learning the majority language and history.' - From the Bonn to the Berlin Republic: Germany at the Twentieth Anniversary of Unification. Jeffrey J. Anderson. Eric Langenbacher.