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> This is a huge part of the problem isn't it? I think this is the problem. Say a black guy with gold teeth, tons of tattoos and colorful dreadlocks and a mid

> This is a huge part of the problem isn't it? I think this is the problem. Say a black guy with gold teeth, tons of tattoos and colorful dreadlocks and a middle aged white guy walk in. One of them is a rapper. Who is it? Based on experience, most people will certainly assume the black guy is. What if it turns out it’s the white guy? Are they unconsciously racist against white people or are they just following experience-based heuristics? Would they have decided differently if rappers were commonly middle aged white guys? I say for sure. If black people in tech become more common this particular problem will solve itself.

eloisant 6y ago
It certainly makes sense to assume (in your head) the black guy is a rapper, and the white guy is a tech CEO. But when you know how it makes people feel when you make your assumption visible, you understand the need to act like anyone could be the CEO, the developer, etc. Same goes for women devs who at tech conferences who are too often "assumed" to be girlfriends, recruiters or other non-tech participants. Yes, the problem will solve itself if black people in tech become more common - but: 1. it's not going to get solved if we make them feel out of place in tech by always assuming they're "the wrong guy". 2. let's try not to make the life harder to the very few black people (and other minorities) who are already in tech?
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  I’m not arguing that you should make your assumptions visible (I agree it’s better to just ask), I’m just saying racism isn’t the root cause here and any attempts to fix this issue assuming that it is are going to be ineffective at best and counterproductive at worst. We should work on fixing the actual issue.
  - dorgo 6y ago
    >I’m just saying racism isn’t the root cause here There is the idea that all people are unconsciously racist based on cultural inheritance of the last centuries (imperialism). It is just assumed by everybody that white people are superior in some way. Evidence based reasoning ( few black CEO => it's unlikely to meet a black CEO => this black guy there is not a CEO )is welcome (defensive) argument. Yes, it would help to increase the number of black CEO's, developers, ... But it's only a part of the problem.
- Udik 6y ago
  > But when you know how it makes people feel when you make your assumption visible... How people feel depends on their own assumptions on why you made the mistake. Say that yours was a perfectly natural mistake based on innate heuristics, and there is no value judgement implied. If this is the way your mistake is interpreted, no feelings are hurt. But if you spread the idea that this is racism and a value judgement is implied, then feelings are hurt, and it becomes a serious issue. So the way you frame the issue actually ends up creating the issue.
- historyremade 6y ago
  That white guy is Pitbull.
evrydayhustling 6y ago
> Are they unconsciously racist or are they just following experience-based heuristics? Both! Today's discussion about racism isn't (mainly) about critiquing the motivations in peoples' deepest heart. It's about acknowledging that the outcomes of this kind of assumption can be racist, regardless of whether any harm was intended. The person who is assumed to be subordinate, or less educated, or more prone to criminality will be given fewer opportunities. Society will systematically fail to recognize and utilize their talents, and can ultimately do them great harm through neglect - even if the individuals involved were "just following experience-based heuristics". Acknowledging your potential to participate in racism doesn't mean admitting you have a cartoonish hatred. It means recognizing that it requires a proactive effort to keep assumptions from becoming self perpetuating in harmful ways.
- buran77 6y ago
  In general people who never suffered from this kind of profiling have a hard time understanding what's the problem. "I just called him a rapper". No, you just profiled someone who is sick and tired of being profiled. So the examples meant to convey the message better have to be a bit exaggerated. Imagine calling every white, bald guy "a neo-nazi". A reasonable person who just didn't get the problem suddenly finds the heuristics explanation as no longer appropriate. An unreasonable person probably doesn't want to understand anyway so any effort is wasted on them.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    > In general people who never suffered from this kind of profiling have a hard time understanding what's the problem I'm assuming you're directing this towards me since you mentioned my example. I am myself a minority. Do you realize that you just racially profiled me based on my opinion?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - buran77 6y ago
pkilgore 6y ago
This is what is meant by systemic racism. > If black people in tech become more common this particular problem will solve itself. I suspect there will not be more black people in tech, until they are not treated differently based on skin color.
- jiggunjer 6y ago
  > systemic racism Can't we just call it Bayesian profiling?
jeffyang 6y ago
Yes, it is experience/learning/environment based heuristics. And to me, there's nothing wrong with that. As humans, that's what we are programmed to do. It's completely natural. I would argue that it's pretty much inevitable. Let's take your example and let's make it realistic and say there are 2 people in suits, one black and one white. Which one is the CEO? Heuristics say it's the white male. What is the difference between experience based heuristics and unconscious racism? It has to be internal to the person who is making the call. Because from any other perspective there is absolutely no difference. As the parent said, these are honest mistakes. Based on what we learned from our parents, our culture, our peers. Based on our observations. We all have these prejudices. I certainly do. You call it experience based heuristics. I call it racism. Maybe it's not the technical definition of racism, but to me, if the only determining factor is the color of someone's skin, to me that is racism. So is there a problem? I think we all agree there is. You even mentioned in your comment that this is a problem. Is it your fault? No. So if we agree there is a problem, the question you are asking is... should we do anything about it? I am an optimist. And I do believe that eventually it will solve itself one way or another. But we can help. We can make it happen faster. This is a spectrum. One end is saying that it will happen anyways so why do anything about it? You could say a similar thing about any effort. Why contribute to cancer research? We will figure it out eventually. The reason is that we want it to happen faster. Because people are actively suffering, people are dying. This is happening to Black Americans right now and for centuries! The other end of the spectrum is equally ridiculous. Should you feel guilty and spend all your time on this cause? No. I want to make one more point. I used to argue for experience-based heuristics. So. What is the argument in favor of experience-based heuristics? Well, the argument is that it's useful. It's a tool for making quick decisions that help you. It's most useful in situations where your safety is at risk. And yes, it's racist, but I'm not going to deny that it's useful for you to use heuristics to decide to walk quicker when you are walking through certain neighborhoods. I certainly would. But is it useful for you to assume that one person is a CEO? Or even a rapper? I'm pretty sure your safety is not at risk or there is an urgent need for a quick decision. I would argue it's actually starting to become harmful in today's environment to make these assumptions. And that's a great thing. Yes, it does suck for the people who were inadvertently caught between the old paradigm and the new paradigm. And I genuinely empathize with that and feel sorry for those people. And I wish we could all be more empathetic to that and seek to help those people rather than punish them. The new paradigm is better for us. For our society and for the majority of people. We are making progress. And we can accelerate that and make it happen faster.
callmeal 6y ago
>Are they unconsciously racist against white people That is not possible in this country.
ilkan 6y ago
The attempt at hidden messaging in the way the "who is it" question is posed, is _exactly_ the problem.

eloisant 6y ago

It certainly makes sense to assume (in your head) the black guy is a rapper, and the white guy is a tech CEO. But when you know how it makes people feel when you make your assumption visible, you understand the need to act like anyone could be the CEO, the developer, etc. Same goes for women devs who at tech conferences who are too often "assumed" to be girlfriends, recruiters or other non-tech participants. Yes, the problem will solve itself if black people in tech become more common - but: 1. it's not going to get solved if we make them feel out of place in tech by always assuming they're "the wrong guy". 2. let's try not to make the life harder to the very few black people (and other minorities) who are already in tech?

read_if_gay_ 6y ago
I’m not arguing that you should make your assumptions visible (I agree it’s better to just ask), I’m just saying racism isn’t the root cause here and any attempts to fix this issue assuming that it is are going to be ineffective at best and counterproductive at worst. We should work on fixing the actual issue.
- dorgo 6y ago
  >I’m just saying racism isn’t the root cause here There is the idea that all people are unconsciously racist based on cultural inheritance of the last centuries (imperialism). It is just assumed by everybody that white people are superior in some way. Evidence based reasoning ( few black CEO => it's unlikely to meet a black CEO => this black guy there is not a CEO )is welcome (defensive) argument. Yes, it would help to increase the number of black CEO's, developers, ... But it's only a part of the problem.
Udik 6y ago
> But when you know how it makes people feel when you make your assumption visible... How people feel depends on their own assumptions on why you made the mistake. Say that yours was a perfectly natural mistake based on innate heuristics, and there is no value judgement implied. If this is the way your mistake is interpreted, no feelings are hurt. But if you spread the idea that this is racism and a value judgement is implied, then feelings are hurt, and it becomes a serious issue. So the way you frame the issue actually ends up creating the issue.
historyremade 6y ago
That white guy is Pitbull.

evrydayhustling 6y ago

> Are they unconsciously racist or are they just following experience-based heuristics? Both! Today's discussion about racism isn't (mainly) about critiquing the motivations in peoples' deepest heart. It's about acknowledging that the outcomes of this kind of assumption can be racist, regardless of whether any harm was intended. The person who is assumed to be subordinate, or less educated, or more prone to criminality will be given fewer opportunities. Society will systematically fail to recognize and utilize their talents, and can ultimately do them great harm through neglect - even if the individuals involved were "just following experience-based heuristics". Acknowledging your potential to participate in racism doesn't mean admitting you have a cartoonish hatred. It means recognizing that it requires a proactive effort to keep assumptions from becoming self perpetuating in harmful ways.

buran77 6y ago
In general people who never suffered from this kind of profiling have a hard time understanding what's the problem. "I just called him a rapper". No, you just profiled someone who is sick and tired of being profiled. So the examples meant to convey the message better have to be a bit exaggerated. Imagine calling every white, bald guy "a neo-nazi". A reasonable person who just didn't get the problem suddenly finds the heuristics explanation as no longer appropriate. An unreasonable person probably doesn't want to understand anyway so any effort is wasted on them.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  > In general people who never suffered from this kind of profiling have a hard time understanding what's the problem I'm assuming you're directing this towards me since you mentioned my example. I am myself a minority. Do you realize that you just racially profiled me based on my opinion?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - buran77 6y ago

pkilgore 6y ago

This is what is meant by systemic racism. > If black people in tech become more common this particular problem will solve itself. I suspect there will not be more black people in tech, until they are not treated differently based on skin color.

jiggunjer 6y ago
> systemic racism Can't we just call it Bayesian profiling?

jeffyang 6y ago

Yes, it is experience/learning/environment based heuristics. And to me, there's nothing wrong with that. As humans, that's what we are programmed to do. It's completely natural. I would argue that it's pretty much inevitable. Let's take your example and let's make it realistic and say there are 2 people in suits, one black and one white. Which one is the CEO? Heuristics say it's the white male. What is the difference between experience based heuristics and unconscious racism? It has to be internal to the person who is making the call. Because from any other perspective there is absolutely no difference. As the parent said, these are honest mistakes. Based on what we learned from our parents, our culture, our peers. Based on our observations. We all have these prejudices. I certainly do. You call it experience based heuristics. I call it racism. Maybe it's not the technical definition of racism, but to me, if the only determining factor is the color of someone's skin, to me that is racism. So is there a problem? I think we all agree there is. You even mentioned in your comment that this is a problem. Is it your fault? No. So if we agree there is a problem, the question you are asking is... should we do anything about it? I am an optimist. And I do believe that eventually it will solve itself one way or another. But we can help. We can make it happen faster. This is a spectrum. One end is saying that it will happen anyways so why do anything about it? You could say a similar thing about any effort. Why contribute to cancer research? We will figure it out eventually. The reason is that we want it to happen faster. Because people are actively suffering, people are dying. This is happening to Black Americans right now and for centuries! The other end of the spectrum is equally ridiculous. Should you feel guilty and spend all your time on this cause? No. I want to make one more point. I used to argue for experience-based heuristics. So. What is the argument in favor of experience-based heuristics? Well, the argument is that it's useful. It's a tool for making quick decisions that help you. It's most useful in situations where your safety is at risk. And yes, it's racist, but I'm not going to deny that it's useful for you to use heuristics to decide to walk quicker when you are walking through certain neighborhoods. I certainly would. But is it useful for you to assume that one person is a CEO? Or even a rapper? I'm pretty sure your safety is not at risk or there is an urgent need for a quick decision. I would argue it's actually starting to become harmful in today's environment to make these assumptions. And that's a great thing. Yes, it does suck for the people who were inadvertently caught between the old paradigm and the new paradigm. And I genuinely empathize with that and feel sorry for those people. And I wish we could all be more empathetic to that and seek to help those people rather than punish them. The new paradigm is better for us. For our society and for the majority of people. We are making progress. And we can accelerate that and make it happen faster.

callmeal 6y ago

>Are they unconsciously racist against white people That is not possible in this country.

ilkan 6y ago

The attempt at hidden messaging in the way the "who is it" question is posed, is _exactly_ the problem.