4 ms·

Is Apple Rent Seeking with the App Store? (2018)

20 points by avthar 6y ago

aurizon 6y ago
yes, Yes, Absolutely, they add zero, extract lots = rent seekers...
mardifoufs 6y ago
People seem to be using that term way too much for anything that involves making a profit. Rent seeking has a narrow definition in economics and providing access to a wide consumer base cultivated through years of hardware and software development definitely does not fit in that definition. It's weird to just forget the value added through the whole ecosystem by Apple and say that they make "30% for doing nothing" which is only true if you ignore... everything? It's like saying a downtown store is rent seeking because it's only selling stuff they didn't make at a higher mark up.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- alexashka 6y ago
  Rent seeking: Rent seeking (or rent-seeking) is an economic concept that occurs when an entity seeks to gain added wealth without any reciprocal contribution of productivity. [0] What Apple is doing is artificially limiting what an app can do with regards to specific functionality made possible by having a web browser embedded in your app, because they want to be a middle-man in every financial transaction. That is all Apple is doing. They're not adding shit, they're limiting existing functionality because they can set arbitrary bullshit rules that have nothing to do with customer satisfaction or productivity and everything to do with Apple's profit margins. That's what rent seeking is. Every large company does this - they grow at all costs, usually using their investor buddies' money until they run most competition out of business and then proceed to squeeze their suppliers into borderline extinction through monopolistic abuse. These criminals do it to everyone and they do it across companies too by forming anti-competitive backroom deals between each other. [1] [0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-requires-six-high-tech-companies-stop-entering-anticompetitive-employee https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-requires-s...
  - hellisothers 6y ago
    If Apple were the only game in town I would be right behind you, but they’re not, Android is right around the corner with open arms, a larger global market and everything! If Apple is “not adding shit”, why are we even discussing this, why aren’t they being run into the ground by Android?
    - alexashka 6y ago
      You're taking a sentence within a context, removing it from said context and asking why the sentence does not work in a different context of your choosing. That is an illegal move :) Regarding only game in town: You're saying that if I claim to have been raped by someone I decided to go on a date with, that you'd be sympathetic if this rapist were the only other human in existence, but since there are other human beings I can now go on dates with, there is no problem that needs to be fixed? Well, alright then, as long as we have choice, having been raped is not a problem I suppose.
  - mardifoufs 6y ago
    I'm all against the way apple cripples it's devices and limit what they can do. But that does not mean Apple is not creating value and wealth. Think about it, that's a... Selling point of the Apple ecosystem. People get into it because it's much simpler to use and has a streamlined experience. That deliberate design choice from Apple is a big reason it's userbase exists in the first place and that's what Apple is offering to devs in exchange for the 30%. It's creating wealth for apple and for app devs. If anything the refined products they make and even the restrictive design choises make iOS apps much more profitable for devs than Android. It would have been rent seeking if Apple was the only player and users basically cannot do anything but pay Apple, but there is already Android with much less restrictions. Yet, people don't massively migrate to android.
- pwdisswordfish2 6y ago
  "This brings me to my definition of rent seeking. Instead of attempting to take, say, the total cost of a project, including all of the sales and maneuvering costs, and set that off against the total benefit, I have a more modest proposal. Clearly, that total cost is what we would like to do but cannot. My suggestion is that we use the term "rent seeking" (and I always have) solely for cases in which whatever is proposed has a negative social impact. " - Gordon Tullock, The Rent-Seeking Society (2005), p.9 Tullock is credited as the originator of the concept of rent-seeking. I think anyone who claims Apple is rent-seeking would agree that the App Store has a negative social impact. They are using the term as its originator intended. Apple is acting as a middleman.
  - hellisothers 6y ago
    I clearly am biased towards thinking Apple deserves to set whatever price they want but at what point do you feel the App Store became rent seeking? Was it 2008? 2014? 2019? My point being that at the time it was released the platform was welcomed as an amazing opportunity and at some point that soured, but why?
  - mardifoufs 6y ago
    How does it have a negative social impact? In any case,the common definition usually includes getting money without generating wealth, which does not make sense here. Apple generates wealth for the devs. Apple produced the ecosystem and the user experience thus generating value for the devs. I get the social impact thing but it eventually leads to "anything I disapprove of is rentseeking". You can be against Apple, there's plenty of reason to be, but its important to use the right terms. If rent seeking is really all business manoeuvring leading to damaging social impacts, the word becomes much less meaningful. Social impact is subjective and hard to measure, lack of wealth creation and profiteering are much more useful metrics in economic.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
vaxman 6y ago
That's ancient history! They're approaching two trillion dollar market cap. That's like filling the Great Lakes with Grade A honey and not expecting any bees to come sting yoh azz. Once the economy and political scenario stabilities, the hammer will fall. As for what that means, one only needs look at what happened to Bill and Steve when they chose to fight rather than capitulate and then realize how much opportunity Tim Apple has already had to avoid what's now inevitable. IMNSHO: If Apple doesn't license alternate app-stores to be operated by qualified third-parties (on a per-consumer opt-in basis) and support the iPhone development tools on non-Apple systems, there will be a similar outcome. I'm just hoping if they go foreign, it's someone from Italy or Norway that takes over --I may have 40 years experience, but in my family, I'm considered mid-career and will be stuck with Apple for decades to come.

20 points by avthar 6y ago

yes, Yes, Absolutely, they add zero, extract lots = rent seekers...

People seem to be using that term way too much for anything that involves making a profit. Rent seeking has a narrow definition in economics and providing access to a wide consumer base cultivated through years of hardware and software development definitely does not fit in that definition. It's weird to just forget the value added through the whole ecosystem by Apple and say that they make "30% for doing nothing" which is only true if you ignore... everything? It's like saying a downtown store is rent seeking because it's only selling stuff they didn't make at a higher mark up.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
alexashka 6y ago
Rent seeking: Rent seeking (or rent-seeking) is an economic concept that occurs when an entity seeks to gain added wealth without any reciprocal contribution of productivity. [0] What Apple is doing is artificially limiting what an app can do with regards to specific functionality made possible by having a web browser embedded in your app, because they want to be a middle-man in every financial transaction. That is all Apple is doing. They're not adding shit, they're limiting existing functionality because they can set arbitrary bullshit rules that have nothing to do with customer satisfaction or productivity and everything to do with Apple's profit margins. That's what rent seeking is. Every large company does this - they grow at all costs, usually using their investor buddies' money until they run most competition out of business and then proceed to squeeze their suppliers into borderline extinction through monopolistic abuse. These criminals do it to everyone and they do it across companies too by forming anti-competitive backroom deals between each other. [1] [0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-requires-six-high-tech-companies-stop-entering-anticompetitive-employee https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-requires-s...
- hellisothers 6y ago
  If Apple were the only game in town I would be right behind you, but they’re not, Android is right around the corner with open arms, a larger global market and everything! If Apple is “not adding shit”, why are we even discussing this, why aren’t they being run into the ground by Android?
  - alexashka 6y ago
    You're taking a sentence within a context, removing it from said context and asking why the sentence does not work in a different context of your choosing. That is an illegal move :) Regarding only game in town: You're saying that if I claim to have been raped by someone I decided to go on a date with, that you'd be sympathetic if this rapist were the only other human in existence, but since there are other human beings I can now go on dates with, there is no problem that needs to be fixed? Well, alright then, as long as we have choice, having been raped is not a problem I suppose.
- mardifoufs 6y ago
  I'm all against the way apple cripples it's devices and limit what they can do. But that does not mean Apple is not creating value and wealth. Think about it, that's a... Selling point of the Apple ecosystem. People get into it because it's much simpler to use and has a streamlined experience. That deliberate design choice from Apple is a big reason it's userbase exists in the first place and that's what Apple is offering to devs in exchange for the 30%. It's creating wealth for apple and for app devs. If anything the refined products they make and even the restrictive design choises make iOS apps much more profitable for devs than Android. It would have been rent seeking if Apple was the only player and users basically cannot do anything but pay Apple, but there is already Android with much less restrictions. Yet, people don't massively migrate to android.
pwdisswordfish2 6y ago
"This brings me to my definition of rent seeking. Instead of attempting to take, say, the total cost of a project, including all of the sales and maneuvering costs, and set that off against the total benefit, I have a more modest proposal. Clearly, that total cost is what we would like to do but cannot. My suggestion is that we use the term "rent seeking" (and I always have) solely for cases in which whatever is proposed has a negative social impact. " - Gordon Tullock, The Rent-Seeking Society (2005), p.9 Tullock is credited as the originator of the concept of rent-seeking. I think anyone who claims Apple is rent-seeking would agree that the App Store has a negative social impact. They are using the term as its originator intended. Apple is acting as a middleman.
- hellisothers 6y ago
  I clearly am biased towards thinking Apple deserves to set whatever price they want but at what point do you feel the App Store became rent seeking? Was it 2008? 2014? 2019? My point being that at the time it was released the platform was welcomed as an amazing opportunity and at some point that soured, but why?
- mardifoufs 6y ago
  How does it have a negative social impact? In any case,the common definition usually includes getting money without generating wealth, which does not make sense here. Apple generates wealth for the devs. Apple produced the ecosystem and the user experience thus generating value for the devs. I get the social impact thing but it eventually leads to "anything I disapprove of is rentseeking". You can be against Apple, there's plenty of reason to be, but its important to use the right terms. If rent seeking is really all business manoeuvring leading to damaging social impacts, the word becomes much less meaningful. Social impact is subjective and hard to measure, lack of wealth creation and profiteering are much more useful metrics in economic.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

vaxman 6y ago

That's ancient history! They're approaching two trillion dollar market cap. That's like filling the Great Lakes with Grade A honey and not expecting any bees to come sting yoh azz. Once the economy and political scenario stabilities, the hammer will fall. As for what that means, one only needs look at what happened to Bill and Steve when they chose to fight rather than capitulate and then realize how much opportunity Tim Apple has already had to avoid what's now inevitable. IMNSHO: If Apple doesn't license alternate app-stores to be operated by qualified third-parties (on a per-consumer opt-in basis) and support the iPhone development tools on non-Apple systems, there will be a similar outcome. I'm just hoping if they go foreign, it's someone from Italy or Norway that takes over --I may have 40 years experience, but in my family, I'm considered mid-career and will be stuck with Apple for decades to come.