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You accuse my argument ala the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" as specious because I use a few cherry picked examples to demonstrate demonstrate a general fact that isn'

You accuse my argument ala the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" as specious because I use a few cherry picked examples to demonstrate demonstrate a general fact that isn't true? Also you suggest that language fluency might be a factor? Read the study [1]. Here's an abstract: > Across nine studies (n = 11,030) using mixed methods (archival analyses of chief executive officers, field surveys in large US companies, student leader nominations and elections, and experiments), East Asians were less likely than South Asians and whites to attain leadership positions, whereas South Asians were more likely than whites to do so. To understand why the bamboo ceiling exists for East Asians but not South Asians, we examined three categories of mechanisms—prejudice (intergroup), motivation (intrapersonal), and assertiveness (interpersonal)—while controlling for demographics (e.g., birth country, English fluency, education, socioeconomic status). Analyses revealed that East Asians faced less prejudice than South Asians and were equally motivated by work and leadership as South Asians. However, East Asians were lower in assertiveness, which consistently mediated the leadership attainment gap between East Asians and South Asians. These results suggest that East Asians hit the bamboo ceiling because their low assertiveness is incongruent with American norms concerning how leaders should communicate. The bamboo ceiling is not an Asian issue, but an issue of cultural fit. As for Hollywood - obviously there is plenty of discrimination based on names, accents, and much worse. My point is, if Asians tried as hard getting into Hollywood as they did in getting into Harvard, we would be in a completely different place right now. It's hard and unfair (just like getting into and ivy) but not impossible. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339227693_Why_East_Asians_but_not_South_Asians_are_Underrepresented_in_Leadership_Positions_in_the_United_States https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339227693_Why_East_...

quadrifoliate 6y ago
> You accuse my argument ala the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" as specious because I use a few cherry picked examples to demonstrate demonstrate a general fact that isn't true? Accuse is a strong word, but basically yes. Maybe it's a visceral reaction to something I have hear one too many times, that Asians don't face discrimination in tech because "Look at Satya and Sundar" (not exactly what you said). But the point is that Satya and Sundar have little in common with the Midwest of America. Here, we can be shot by random guys in bars because they think we're Iranian [1]. You can guess that this kind of atmosphere might not correlate with a particularly equitable promotion process. If it helps, my intention is not to propagate a "woe is me" narrative, but to examine the possibility that Asians are treated differently (to their disadvantage) during promotion, just like other people of color. Ironically, our discussion here and your linked study already led to a better insight than I had previously! As an admirer of Confucian values, it also makes me a little sad :| Also, thanks for the study link! I see now that it was controlled for language, and consequently, my guess about language being a factor was simply wrong. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/kansas-attack-possible-hate-crime-srinivas-kuchibhotla.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/kansas-attack-...
- blisseyGo 6y ago
  > Here, we can be shot by random guys in bars because they think we're Iranian Cherry picking a single occurrence where someone shot someone for racist reasons is not how science works plus this has nothing to do with the discussion. Microsoft, IBM, Google, Adobe, Nokia, Harman, MasterCard and PepsiCo etc all have Indian (minority) CEOs. Apple has a gay CEO. Claiming there is some bias against minorities is absurd. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-... whites kill whites, blacks kill blacks, asians and south asians kill their own.
  - quadrifoliate 6y ago
    > Claiming there is some bias against minorities is absurd. Have a good evening, I guess :)
- aiisahik 6y ago
  Are Asians treated worse during promotions because (1) the color of their skin / physical appearance (2) the confucian values (lack of assertiveness) of the individual (3) the stereotype of confucian values (lack of assertiveness) of Asians in general I think it's more (2) and (3) than (1). It's hard being Asian - you have the weight of all other Asians practicing confucian values dragging you down. Time to get rid of those values - If not for yourself then for others who don't want to be weighed down by the stereotype.

quadrifoliate 6y ago

> You accuse my argument ala the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" as specious because I use a few cherry picked examples to demonstrate demonstrate a general fact that isn't true? Accuse is a strong word, but basically yes. Maybe it's a visceral reaction to something I have hear one too many times, that Asians don't face discrimination in tech because "Look at Satya and Sundar" (not exactly what you said). But the point is that Satya and Sundar have little in common with the Midwest of America. Here, we can be shot by random guys in bars because they think we're Iranian [1]. You can guess that this kind of atmosphere might not correlate with a particularly equitable promotion process. If it helps, my intention is not to propagate a "woe is me" narrative, but to examine the possibility that Asians are treated differently (to their disadvantage) during promotion, just like other people of color. Ironically, our discussion here and your linked study already led to a better insight than I had previously! As an admirer of Confucian values, it also makes me a little sad :| Also, thanks for the study link! I see now that it was controlled for language, and consequently, my guess about language being a factor was simply wrong. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/kansas-attack-possible-hate-crime-srinivas-kuchibhotla.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/kansas-attack-...

blisseyGo 6y ago
> Here, we can be shot by random guys in bars because they think we're Iranian Cherry picking a single occurrence where someone shot someone for racist reasons is not how science works plus this has nothing to do with the discussion. Microsoft, IBM, Google, Adobe, Nokia, Harman, MasterCard and PepsiCo etc all have Indian (minority) CEOs. Apple has a gay CEO. Claiming there is some bias against minorities is absurd. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-... whites kill whites, blacks kill blacks, asians and south asians kill their own.
- quadrifoliate 6y ago
  > Claiming there is some bias against minorities is absurd. Have a good evening, I guess :)
aiisahik 6y ago
Are Asians treated worse during promotions because (1) the color of their skin / physical appearance (2) the confucian values (lack of assertiveness) of the individual (3) the stereotype of confucian values (lack of assertiveness) of Asians in general I think it's more (2) and (3) than (1). It's hard being Asian - you have the weight of all other Asians practicing confucian values dragging you down. Time to get rid of those values - If not for yourself then for others who don't want to be weighed down by the stereotype.