6 ms·

Well, it's still sexist. Same thing. Also, wrong. A better example would be, "women aren't passionate about driving". That's a stereotype, likely a correct one

by tomp 6y ago

Well, it's still sexist. Same thing. Also, wrong. A better example would be, "women aren't passionate about driving". That's a stereotype, likely a correct one (i.e. substantiated by statistics... I mean, I'm not certain, but that would be my prior, but I'm very open to changing it), and most importantly: not harmful. It's just a stereotype. I'm not denying that things could be harmful (racism, sexist, ...). But not all stereotypes are. Like guessing that "Alex" is probably a guy.

remote_phone 6y ago
Saying it’s not harmful is your privilege showing. Imagine you’re a 6 year old girl and you love cars but you never are encouraged because “women aren’t passionate about driving”. How about just not making any assumptions at all and ask and support people, be it white, black, male, female, trans, etc?
- tomp 6y ago
  > Saying it’s not harmful is your privilege showing. No, it's my experience showing. I grew up being basically ostracized (and also bullied) for being a geek. Little did I know it would turn out to be an extremely lucrative career. Simply, while other boys were out playing sports, or indoors playing computer games, I was programming. Because I was interested. Having said that, I think it's also the case that some people are discouraged from doing what they want, because parents/society. I don't think I'm doing that though. If anything, I'd be more curious about someone doing something unusual (not even in an anti-stereotypical way, but like, generally - such as archery, or spear fishing, or (until recently) bread-making). > How about just not making any assumptions at all and ask and support people I definitely support people doing pretty much whatever. But experience shows that it's often better to e.g. lead conversations into interesting topics, rather than play a questions & answers game to find a common interest. The more you're able to do that, based on quick inferences, the better conversationalist you are (on average).
panopticon 6y ago
> That's a stereotype, likely a correct one [snip], and most importantly: not harmful. It's just a stereotype. Citation on those not being harmful? Stereotypes like that seem to be a driving factor in why STEM fields are very male dominated. "Girls don't like cars; go find some dolls to play with."
- Grustaf 6y ago
  No normal parent has said anything even remotely like that in the last 30 years. Why is it so terrible to accept that men and women on average have different interests? Everyone knows that testosterone makes young men orders of magnitude more violent, why is it inconceivable that they could also be 4 times more interested in more mechanic play? It’s been observed even in almost newborn chimpanzees for Gods sake.
  - golf1052 6y ago
    I think it's frustrating that people make claims to ideas that they are vaguely aware about. The vagueness can lead to repeating incorrect claims which I think is harmful, especially when discussing sensitive topics. > Everyone knows that testosterone makes young men orders of magnitude more violent You're using hyperbole but yes it's commonly understood that there's a link between testosterone and aggression, however you extend that claim to something completely different > why is it inconceivable that they could also be 4 times more interested in more mechanic play? It’s been observed even in almost newborn chimpanzees for Gods sake. I counter that this second claim is related to the first, is it that testosterone makes young males more likely to play with mechanical objects? There are a few articles that reference this study from 2008 [1]. It refers to rhesus monkeys not chimpanzees and their hypothesis at the end is much more nuanced >We offer the hypothesis that toy preferences reflect hormonally influenced behavioral and cognitive biases which are sculpted by social processes into the sex differences seen in monkeys and humans. Furthermore there is at least 1 meta-analysis from 2017 [2] that highlights > Gender differences in toy choice exist and appear to be the product of both innate and social forces. > Despite methodological variation in the choice and number of toys offered, context of testing, and age of child, the consistency in finding sex differences in children's preferences for toys typed Note they do not make the claim that testosterone is the cause of these differences. Scientists try to be careful about the language they use, we should be just as careful. 1: Sex differences in rhesus monkey toy preferences parallel those of children - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.yhbeh.2008.03.008 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.yhbeh.2008.03.008 2: Sex differences in children's toy preferences: A systematic review, meta‐regression, and meta‐analysis - https://doi.org/10.1002/icd.2064 https://doi.org/10.1002/icd.2064
Domenic_S 6y ago
Not going to get into whether "just a stereotype" is harmful generally, but your example really depends on the context. What if you're a woman applying to be a performance driver somewhere, and the response to your application is "women aren't passionate about driving"? That would be harmful.
- Grustaf 6y ago
  That would be an absurd response if the woman in question was actually interested. People only use stereotypes when they DONT have specific information. I’m over forty and and upper middle class. It’s a true stereotype that we don’t tend to be passionate skateboarders, but someone that met me in a skatepark would not draw the conclusion that I’m not interested based on my age and socioeconomics.
  - Domenic_S 6y ago
    > That would be an absurd response if the woman in question was actually interested. Of course, and that's the danger of stereotypes. Now it's up to her to prove she's interested. > It’s a true stereotype that we don’t tend to be passionate skateboarders, but someone that met me in a skatepark would not draw the conclusion that I’m not interested based on my age and socioeconomics. This is a great example. If they saw you standing there watching, they would draw the conclusion you're there with your kid/working maintenance/etc. Pull a random gamer kid with no skating passion and stand him next to you, then ask people who the skater is -- I'd bet 99 times out of 100 they pick the kid. Only once you prove yourself a skater does anyone correctly evaluate you, and to anyone who wasn't there when you proved it, you have to prove it again next time (or someone from the in group vouches for you). Go to a different skate park and you have to prove yourself again. Every time you meet someone new, you have to do a little dog and pony show to prove you're a Real Skater™ [0]. Now replace skating with programming and it should be obvious why stereotypes can be harmful. [0] Even Tony Hawk runs into this not infrequently (stories on his twitter) where people even after learning his name can't/don't accept he's the pro skater.
esperent 6y ago
It's pretty harmful if you're a woman who likes driving and you keep getting excluded from driving related groups and discussions because the men in these groups assume your interest is not genuine.
- wolco 6y ago
  It is tough teenage boys who want to babysit for extra cash. They always seem lose the job to a younger girl.
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    They can both be harmful and valid
    - the_omegist 6y ago
      Yet you don't see organizations and mobs fighting for that.
itronitron 6y ago
slightly off-topic, while every Alex I know personally is a guy for the generation that plays Minecraft 'Alex' is considered female. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/apr/28/minecraft-mojang-female-alex-character https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/apr/28/minecraft...
- cameronbrown 6y ago
  It's both, nothing odd here.
champagneben 6y ago
But surely it can be harmful? Perhaps women aren't encouraged to get into racing sports and get potentially lucrative careers out of it. Imagine the same sentence with computers - or programming! - replacing driving. Many a heated discussion has been had on these forums about a certain man and his memo.

by tomp 6y ago

remote_phone 6y ago

Saying it’s not harmful is your privilege showing. Imagine you’re a 6 year old girl and you love cars but you never are encouraged because “women aren’t passionate about driving”. How about just not making any assumptions at all and ask and support people, be it white, black, male, female, trans, etc?

tomp 6y ago
> Saying it’s not harmful is your privilege showing. No, it's my experience showing. I grew up being basically ostracized (and also bullied) for being a geek. Little did I know it would turn out to be an extremely lucrative career. Simply, while other boys were out playing sports, or indoors playing computer games, I was programming. Because I was interested. Having said that, I think it's also the case that some people are discouraged from doing what they want, because parents/society. I don't think I'm doing that though. If anything, I'd be more curious about someone doing something unusual (not even in an anti-stereotypical way, but like, generally - such as archery, or spear fishing, or (until recently) bread-making). > How about just not making any assumptions at all and ask and support people I definitely support people doing pretty much whatever. But experience shows that it's often better to e.g. lead conversations into interesting topics, rather than play a questions & answers game to find a common interest. The more you're able to do that, based on quick inferences, the better conversationalist you are (on average).

panopticon 6y ago

> That's a stereotype, likely a correct one [snip], and most importantly: not harmful. It's just a stereotype. Citation on those not being harmful? Stereotypes like that seem to be a driving factor in why STEM fields are very male dominated. "Girls don't like cars; go find some dolls to play with."

Grustaf 6y ago
No normal parent has said anything even remotely like that in the last 30 years. Why is it so terrible to accept that men and women on average have different interests? Everyone knows that testosterone makes young men orders of magnitude more violent, why is it inconceivable that they could also be 4 times more interested in more mechanic play? It’s been observed even in almost newborn chimpanzees for Gods sake.
- golf1052 6y ago
  I think it's frustrating that people make claims to ideas that they are vaguely aware about. The vagueness can lead to repeating incorrect claims which I think is harmful, especially when discussing sensitive topics. > Everyone knows that testosterone makes young men orders of magnitude more violent You're using hyperbole but yes it's commonly understood that there's a link between testosterone and aggression, however you extend that claim to something completely different > why is it inconceivable that they could also be 4 times more interested in more mechanic play? It’s been observed even in almost newborn chimpanzees for Gods sake. I counter that this second claim is related to the first, is it that testosterone makes young males more likely to play with mechanical objects? There are a few articles that reference this study from 2008 [1]. It refers to rhesus monkeys not chimpanzees and their hypothesis at the end is much more nuanced >We offer the hypothesis that toy preferences reflect hormonally influenced behavioral and cognitive biases which are sculpted by social processes into the sex differences seen in monkeys and humans. Furthermore there is at least 1 meta-analysis from 2017 [2] that highlights > Gender differences in toy choice exist and appear to be the product of both innate and social forces. > Despite methodological variation in the choice and number of toys offered, context of testing, and age of child, the consistency in finding sex differences in children's preferences for toys typed Note they do not make the claim that testosterone is the cause of these differences. Scientists try to be careful about the language they use, we should be just as careful. 1: Sex differences in rhesus monkey toy preferences parallel those of children - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.yhbeh.2008.03.008 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.yhbeh.2008.03.008 2: Sex differences in children's toy preferences: A systematic review, meta‐regression, and meta‐analysis - https://doi.org/10.1002/icd.2064 https://doi.org/10.1002/icd.2064

Domenic_S 6y ago

Not going to get into whether "just a stereotype" is harmful generally, but your example really depends on the context. What if you're a woman applying to be a performance driver somewhere, and the response to your application is "women aren't passionate about driving"? That would be harmful.

Grustaf 6y ago
That would be an absurd response if the woman in question was actually interested. People only use stereotypes when they DONT have specific information. I’m over forty and and upper middle class. It’s a true stereotype that we don’t tend to be passionate skateboarders, but someone that met me in a skatepark would not draw the conclusion that I’m not interested based on my age and socioeconomics.
- Domenic_S 6y ago
  > That would be an absurd response if the woman in question was actually interested. Of course, and that's the danger of stereotypes. Now it's up to her to prove she's interested. > It’s a true stereotype that we don’t tend to be passionate skateboarders, but someone that met me in a skatepark would not draw the conclusion that I’m not interested based on my age and socioeconomics. This is a great example. If they saw you standing there watching, they would draw the conclusion you're there with your kid/working maintenance/etc. Pull a random gamer kid with no skating passion and stand him next to you, then ask people who the skater is -- I'd bet 99 times out of 100 they pick the kid. Only once you prove yourself a skater does anyone correctly evaluate you, and to anyone who wasn't there when you proved it, you have to prove it again next time (or someone from the in group vouches for you). Go to a different skate park and you have to prove yourself again. Every time you meet someone new, you have to do a little dog and pony show to prove you're a Real Skater™ [0]. Now replace skating with programming and it should be obvious why stereotypes can be harmful. [0] Even Tony Hawk runs into this not infrequently (stories on his twitter) where people even after learning his name can't/don't accept he's the pro skater.

esperent 6y ago

It's pretty harmful if you're a woman who likes driving and you keep getting excluded from driving related groups and discussions because the men in these groups assume your interest is not genuine.

wolco 6y ago
It is tough teenage boys who want to babysit for extra cash. They always seem lose the job to a younger girl.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  They can both be harmful and valid
  - the_omegist 6y ago
    Yet you don't see organizations and mobs fighting for that.

itronitron 6y ago

slightly off-topic, while every Alex I know personally is a guy for the generation that plays Minecraft 'Alex' is considered female. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/apr/28/minecraft-mojang-female-alex-character https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/apr/28/minecraft...

cameronbrown 6y ago
It's both, nothing odd here.

champagneben 6y ago

But surely it can be harmful? Perhaps women aren't encouraged to get into racing sports and get potentially lucrative careers out of it. Imagine the same sentence with computers - or programming! - replacing driving. Many a heated discussion has been had on these forums about a certain man and his memo.