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I get the feeling we're only seeing half the story here. Apple allows a lot of apps which have outside subscriptions, Basecamp is a perfect example. Also, Netfl

I get the feeling we're only seeing half the story here. Apple allows a lot of apps which have outside subscriptions, Basecamp is a perfect example. Also, Netflix and Amazon Prime for a long time. The outside subscription requirement is probably not the issue here. I'm not advocating for Apple here, this particular post just strikes me as being an odd exception. Just a wild guess here, but it's likely they have some language like "Click here to subscribe" which sends users to an outside link. That is expressly forbidden. UPDATE: The MacRumors story is more coherent and perhaps has a clue to why the app got rejected: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/16/apple-threatens-to-remove-hey-from-app-store/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/16/apple-threatens-to-remo... Maybe their odd "Help Me" page is shooting them in the foot. by comparison, Fastmail has a simple "Can't Log In" button which takes you to the Fastmail support page on lost passwords.

jbverschoor 6y ago
The problem is that the subscription is not available as IAP
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Yes, but there are quite a few other subscription services which don't offer an IAP as well. This just feels strange that they would suddenly single out this app.
  - grumple 6y ago
    They don't single out any app. They do inconsistent reviews, humans are doing it, and sometimes they'll flag you - and you're more likely to be flagged if you aren't a multi-billion dollar app they are familiar with.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Terretta 6y ago
    The Apple note quoted in MacRumors article mentions a class of app that is a "reader", aka, subscribing to content. Netflix and Spotify, as well as Kindle, various news sources, etc., their apps are "readers" aka consume only. Perhaps Hey is not a reader?
pier25 6y ago
> That is expressly forbidden I haven't used the HEY app, but from the DHH tweets it seems they were very careful not to include those.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Found this article which is more coherent than the twitter thread linked in the top: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/16/apple-threatens-to-remove-hey-from-app-store/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/16/apple-threatens-to-remo... This whole thing is really odd, Fastmail offers their own email service with an iOS app and they haven't had these issues. I wonder if Fastmail offers in app purchases?
  - pier25 6y ago
    Apparently they don't: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/fastmail-email-calendar/id931370077 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/fastmail-email-calendar/id9313...
samwillis 6y ago
I have the Hay app and an account, there is no references anywhere in the app to signing up, paying or billing. Both before and after signing in. If works exactly the same as other subscription services that only offer a subscription outside of the app. There is no manufactured controversy here, they have not purposely done something to violate the rules just to get coverage. Their other app, Basecamp, works exactly the same.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  I posted an update to the above, there is a reference to signing up on the Help Me page (it's visible in the linked MacRumors story). https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/16/apple-threatens-to-remove-hey-from-app-store/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/16/apple-threatens-to-remo... Not a fan of this policy I just thought it was odd that they applied it this way. I think there are a lot of legitimate services which Apple is excluding this way.
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    >there is a reference to signing up on the Help Me page Where in there?
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      See the MacRumors link above. It's subtle. Also, not trying to defend/ advocate here, just pointing it out. IMO Apple should allow companies to sell services where the bulk of expenses aren't part of the App Store experience.
      - Hamuko 6y ago
        Do you mean the email link?
  - samwillis 6y ago
    True, that is the only reference, but if that on its own has got them that is frankly outrageous.
applethrowaway2 6y ago
I can vouch for the fact that Apple does this sort of thing on a regular basis. When we were submitting an app update, they rejected it on the grounds that we didn't offer in-app purchases. This is apparently a problem because we offer a subscription on our website, even though we had done the same thing for years with no issue. Also, we had numerous competitors who were doing the exact same thing with no ramifications and had recent updates approved. Apple had no good answers and refused to talk about other apps. We also had no mention or links to our website or subscriptions anywhere in our app. I could go on and on about how ridiculous the whole situation was.
- tebbers 6y ago
  Did you manage to resolve this in the end?
  - applethrowaway2 6y ago
    We had to give in to their strong-arm tactics and provide in-app purchases. We had no choice. And it wasn't just the 30% cut we have to give them that stung. We also had to divert resources from our tiny company to build a whole in-app purchase system, which couldn't be justified by the tiny amount of revenue that mobile brings in for us.
    - pkamb 6y ago
      > I have now heard from multiple developers, both big and small, that over the last few months Apple has been refusing to update their app unless their SaaS service adds in-app purchase. If this has happened to you please email me blog @ my site domain. 100% off the record. https://twitter.com/benthompson/status/1273079296618201093 https://twitter.com/benthompson/status/1273079296618201093
burtonator 6y ago
I think the issue is that you can't sell in-app content. So you can sell a subscription but if you sell a 'book' or 'podcast' in-app it has to use their in-app purchasing API which can take up to 30%.
- ksec 6y ago
  >I think the issue is that you can't sell in-app content. They didm't.
Despegar 6y ago
Protocol just updated their story with this paragraph: >Apple told me that its actual mistake was approving the app in the first place, when it didn't conform to its guidelines. Apple allows these kinds of client apps — where you can't sign up, only sign in — for business services but not consumer products. That's why Basecamp, which companies typically pay for, is allowed on the App Store when Hey, which users pay for, isn't. Anyone who purchased Hey from elsewhere could access it on iOS as usual, the company said, but the app must have a way for users to sign up and pay through Apple's infrastructure. That's how Apple supports and pays for its work on the platform. https://www.protocol.com/hey-email-app-store-rejection https://www.protocol.com/hey-email-app-store-rejection
- Hamuko 6y ago
  >Apple allows these kinds of client apps — where you can't sign up, only sign in — for business services but not consumer products. How does Netflix work on iOS again?
  - Despegar 6y ago
    Netflix counts as a "Reader" app. >>3.1.3(a) “Reader” Apps: Apps may allow a user to access previously purchased content or content subscriptions (specifically: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video, access to professional databases, VoIP, cloud storage, and approved services such as classroom management apps), provided that you agree not to directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods are not designed to discourage use of in-app purchase. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
    - Hamuko 6y ago
      These categories seem arbitrary at best. Feels like they're more to justify letting big companies do X and force little guys to do Y (since audio/music/video subscriptions aren't really accessible to smaller companies).
    - 6y ago
boudin 6y ago
We got a really similar issue. Apple rules are that every app with subscription should use apple pay. They added an exception for content streaming app though (so netflix, spotify, etc...) In our case (a small companion app to a web app which is the core of the service) they started rejecting everything saying we had to change our business model to have our customers using apple pay from now on. After finally being able to have more information other than "change your business model", they finally told us that, unless the user of the ios app is not the person who's supposed to pay, you have to go through apple pay and pay the apple tax. In our case we had several plans, the cheapest being mono-user. In this case the user is always the customer as well indeed. The solution was in our case to prevent users on our cheapest plan to use the ios app. Not that it's a great solution... Another one we thought was to always offer at least 2 user accounts but the impact on our plans was too problematic.
- ksec 6y ago
  >they finally told us that, unless the user of the ios app is not the person who's supposed to pay, you have to go through apple pay and pay the apple tax. Somewhere in the past 2 years I knew their push towards services revenue is going to take things too far. And this is it. Unless there is something Basecamp not telling us or Apple has a better explanation this is very wrong in my book. And I have previously always sided with Apple on App Store policy. Someone needs to explain why Fastmail, and Gmail were allowed without IAP but Hey is not. Edit: Other mail clients under the same condition without IAP were allowed and Hey is not. And yet people still sided with Apple. Someone need to explain the downvoting.
- cm2187 6y ago
  Did they do that before or after the anti-trust investigations were announced?
  - boudin 6y ago
    Before, it was a few months back.
- cercatrova 6y ago

jbverschoor 6y ago

The problem is that the subscription is not available as IAP

ogre_codes 6y ago
Yes, but there are quite a few other subscription services which don't offer an IAP as well. This just feels strange that they would suddenly single out this app.
- grumple 6y ago
  They don't single out any app. They do inconsistent reviews, humans are doing it, and sometimes they'll flag you - and you're more likely to be flagged if you aren't a multi-billion dollar app they are familiar with.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Terretta 6y ago
  The Apple note quoted in MacRumors article mentions a class of app that is a "reader", aka, subscribing to content. Netflix and Spotify, as well as Kindle, various news sources, etc., their apps are "readers" aka consume only. Perhaps Hey is not a reader?

pier25 6y ago

> That is expressly forbidden I haven't used the HEY app, but from the DHH tweets it seems they were very careful not to include those.

ogre_codes 6y ago
Found this article which is more coherent than the twitter thread linked in the top: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/16/apple-threatens-to-remove-hey-from-app-store/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/16/apple-threatens-to-remo... This whole thing is really odd, Fastmail offers their own email service with an iOS app and they haven't had these issues. I wonder if Fastmail offers in app purchases?
- pier25 6y ago
  Apparently they don't: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/fastmail-email-calendar/id931370077 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/fastmail-email-calendar/id9313...

samwillis 6y ago

I have the Hay app and an account, there is no references anywhere in the app to signing up, paying or billing. Both before and after signing in. If works exactly the same as other subscription services that only offer a subscription outside of the app. There is no manufactured controversy here, they have not purposely done something to violate the rules just to get coverage. Their other app, Basecamp, works exactly the same.

ogre_codes 6y ago
I posted an update to the above, there is a reference to signing up on the Help Me page (it's visible in the linked MacRumors story). https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/16/apple-threatens-to-remove-hey-from-app-store/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/16/apple-threatens-to-remo... Not a fan of this policy I just thought it was odd that they applied it this way. I think there are a lot of legitimate services which Apple is excluding this way.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  >there is a reference to signing up on the Help Me page Where in there?
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    See the MacRumors link above. It's subtle. Also, not trying to defend/ advocate here, just pointing it out. IMO Apple should allow companies to sell services where the bulk of expenses aren't part of the App Store experience.
    - Hamuko 6y ago
      Do you mean the email link?
- samwillis 6y ago
  True, that is the only reference, but if that on its own has got them that is frankly outrageous.

applethrowaway2 6y ago

I can vouch for the fact that Apple does this sort of thing on a regular basis. When we were submitting an app update, they rejected it on the grounds that we didn't offer in-app purchases. This is apparently a problem because we offer a subscription on our website, even though we had done the same thing for years with no issue. Also, we had numerous competitors who were doing the exact same thing with no ramifications and had recent updates approved. Apple had no good answers and refused to talk about other apps. We also had no mention or links to our website or subscriptions anywhere in our app. I could go on and on about how ridiculous the whole situation was.

tebbers 6y ago
Did you manage to resolve this in the end?
- applethrowaway2 6y ago
  We had to give in to their strong-arm tactics and provide in-app purchases. We had no choice. And it wasn't just the 30% cut we have to give them that stung. We also had to divert resources from our tiny company to build a whole in-app purchase system, which couldn't be justified by the tiny amount of revenue that mobile brings in for us.
  - pkamb 6y ago
    > I have now heard from multiple developers, both big and small, that over the last few months Apple has been refusing to update their app unless their SaaS service adds in-app purchase. If this has happened to you please email me blog @ my site domain. 100% off the record. https://twitter.com/benthompson/status/1273079296618201093 https://twitter.com/benthompson/status/1273079296618201093

burtonator 6y ago

I think the issue is that you can't sell in-app content. So you can sell a subscription but if you sell a 'book' or 'podcast' in-app it has to use their in-app purchasing API which can take up to 30%.

ksec 6y ago
>I think the issue is that you can't sell in-app content. They didm't.

Despegar 6y ago

Protocol just updated their story with this paragraph: >Apple told me that its actual mistake was approving the app in the first place, when it didn't conform to its guidelines. Apple allows these kinds of client apps — where you can't sign up, only sign in — for business services but not consumer products. That's why Basecamp, which companies typically pay for, is allowed on the App Store when Hey, which users pay for, isn't. Anyone who purchased Hey from elsewhere could access it on iOS as usual, the company said, but the app must have a way for users to sign up and pay through Apple's infrastructure. That's how Apple supports and pays for its work on the platform. https://www.protocol.com/hey-email-app-store-rejection https://www.protocol.com/hey-email-app-store-rejection

Hamuko 6y ago
>Apple allows these kinds of client apps — where you can't sign up, only sign in — for business services but not consumer products. How does Netflix work on iOS again?
- Despegar 6y ago
  Netflix counts as a "Reader" app. >>3.1.3(a) “Reader” Apps: Apps may allow a user to access previously purchased content or content subscriptions (specifically: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video, access to professional databases, VoIP, cloud storage, and approved services such as classroom management apps), provided that you agree not to directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods are not designed to discourage use of in-app purchase. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    These categories seem arbitrary at best. Feels like they're more to justify letting big companies do X and force little guys to do Y (since audio/music/video subscriptions aren't really accessible to smaller companies).
  - 6y ago

boudin 6y ago

We got a really similar issue. Apple rules are that every app with subscription should use apple pay. They added an exception for content streaming app though (so netflix, spotify, etc...) In our case (a small companion app to a web app which is the core of the service) they started rejecting everything saying we had to change our business model to have our customers using apple pay from now on. After finally being able to have more information other than "change your business model", they finally told us that, unless the user of the ios app is not the person who's supposed to pay, you have to go through apple pay and pay the apple tax. In our case we had several plans, the cheapest being mono-user. In this case the user is always the customer as well indeed. The solution was in our case to prevent users on our cheapest plan to use the ios app. Not that it's a great solution... Another one we thought was to always offer at least 2 user accounts but the impact on our plans was too problematic.

ksec 6y ago
>they finally told us that, unless the user of the ios app is not the person who's supposed to pay, you have to go through apple pay and pay the apple tax. Somewhere in the past 2 years I knew their push towards services revenue is going to take things too far. And this is it. Unless there is something Basecamp not telling us or Apple has a better explanation this is very wrong in my book. And I have previously always sided with Apple on App Store policy. Someone needs to explain why Fastmail, and Gmail were allowed without IAP but Hey is not. Edit: Other mail clients under the same condition without IAP were allowed and Hey is not. And yet people still sided with Apple. Someone need to explain the downvoting.
cm2187 6y ago
Did they do that before or after the anti-trust investigations were announced?
- boudin 6y ago
  Before, it was a few months back.
cercatrova 6y ago