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I find it interesting the blog post mentioned Kent Dodds article recommending everyone rewrite fetch. I just argued adamantly against Redux docs about writing t

I find it interesting the blog post mentioned Kent Dodds article recommending everyone rewrite fetch. I just argued adamantly against Redux docs about writing tests being switched off of Enzyme to his library because it’s “more trendy”. https://github.com/reduxjs/redux/pull/3708 https://github.com/reduxjs/redux/pull/3708 Unfortunately, the community overruled me and the docs no longer show how to test Redux apps with enzyme. It only shows Kent’s “react testing library”. The library authors are complicit in this. Rather than showing the pros and cons of both, the trends are being pushed, leading people to falsely believe they must rewrite their whole code base in my experience. The troubling part for me is often those creating these trends may be working on a very different type of app. When you’re writing something complicated, and the ecosystem is dominated by patterns (also preached by Kent) that work best in simpler apps like “only write integration tests” it can be frustrating. If Kent thought enzyme promoted anti patterns he could have technically made a docs PR or just written a thin layer on top of enzyme. Now we have yet another divisive issue. Getting him early access to new react apis and officially recommending RTL in the react docs (while he sells his training videos) make it sit worse with me. It doesn’t feel like the trends are always based on the merits, it feels more like “not invented here” and “nepotism” driving some of these trends for sure.

omniscient_oce 6y ago
react-testing-library and Tailwind are two tools that I use that I feel the userbase are a bit cult-like. I don't know if it's "not invented here" syndrome so much as people use tools based on people, not always just merit. Kent and Adam had similar self-promotion engines running with long-form free video tutorials and strong social media presence, blog posts online, etc. Perhaps this style of promotion more of a tool more than anything is effective at changing the status-quo tools? (Not saying they're necessarily better or worse, just my observation of why they may have become popular)
- joshribakoff 6y ago
  Yeah a blog post titled “never do X” is going to get more clicks than “consider the trade offs before doing X” unfortunately. This leads to people following “thought leaders” and trends, instead of thinking for themselves imo
acemarke 6y ago
As I said in that issue, I'm not completely against having Enzyme info in that page. However, we're not obligated to have the Redux docs show information on _every_ other tool that exists in the ecosystem, and our own recommendations may change over time. Right now, we have an entire docs page on how to use Immutable.js with Redux [0]. That page was submitted by a user who cared about Immutable.js. They took the time and effort to write it, and the information is useful. However, at this point we now actively recommend _against_ using Immutable.js [1], and _do_ recommend using Immer [2]. So, that docs page will be removed in the near future, because it now goes against our recommendations. As I said in that thread, I personally would not recommend Enzyme at this point. Doesn't mean it's useless, or that people shouldn't use it at all, but it's not something I would use or tell people to use. Given the focus of that specific Redux testing docs page, I also don't see a _need_ to show both methods at once. I agree that the ecosystem shouldn't just chase new shiny, but there's also a lot to be said for actually keeping docs and recommendations up to date. I understand your concern in this particular case, but it also feels like you're extrapolating rather broadly from one specific issue. It's also the case that sometimes creating _new_ tools is the right answer. Yarn's release forced NPM to wake up from stagnation. There were dozens of Flux libraries when Redux came out. In the case of RTL, Kent created something because he saw a need, the community has seen that it's useful, and he's well within his rights to promote the tool that he created. [0] https://redux.js.org/recipes/using-immutablejs-with-redux https://redux.js.org/recipes/using-immutablejs-with-redux [1] https://redux.js.org/style-guide/style-guide#use-plain-javascript-objects-for-state https://redux.js.org/style-guide/style-guide#use-plain-javas... [2] https://redux.js.org/style-guide/style-guide#use-immer-for-writing-immutable-updates https://redux.js.org/style-guide/style-guide#use-immer-for-w...
- joshribakoff 6y ago
  Really all I want is instructions on wrapping the component under test in the redux provider that don’t presume I’m using Kent’s library. It should show how to wrap, not how to call RTLs proprietary helper function. I’m not arguing that you’re violating anyone’s “rights” here, I’m arguing some of these trends feel like nepotism. The fact Redux and React are seemingly abandoning official support of Enzyme, after years of recommending it, after some of its users have written 100s of thousands of tests, is my issue, and I feel like is directly related the article about "trends" OP posted about.
sdfhbdf 6y ago
I looked through Your comments. Seems like the compromise You suggested didn't go down well. I understand the maintainers POV - just avoid the flamewars. I liked Your soluton of weighing pros and cons of the different libraries. Maybe the next step would be to create a PR to add enzyme back as a suggested alternative and just build of off this PR?
- joshribakoff 6y ago
  Already did exactly that FYI

omniscient_oce 6y ago

react-testing-library and Tailwind are two tools that I use that I feel the userbase are a bit cult-like. I don't know if it's "not invented here" syndrome so much as people use tools based on people, not always just merit. Kent and Adam had similar self-promotion engines running with long-form free video tutorials and strong social media presence, blog posts online, etc. Perhaps this style of promotion more of a tool more than anything is effective at changing the status-quo tools? (Not saying they're necessarily better or worse, just my observation of why they may have become popular)

joshribakoff 6y ago
Yeah a blog post titled “never do X” is going to get more clicks than “consider the trade offs before doing X” unfortunately. This leads to people following “thought leaders” and trends, instead of thinking for themselves imo

acemarke 6y ago

As I said in that issue, I'm not completely against having Enzyme info in that page. However, we're not obligated to have the Redux docs show information on _every_ other tool that exists in the ecosystem, and our own recommendations may change over time. Right now, we have an entire docs page on how to use Immutable.js with Redux [0]. That page was submitted by a user who cared about Immutable.js. They took the time and effort to write it, and the information is useful. However, at this point we now actively recommend _against_ using Immutable.js [1], and _do_ recommend using Immer [2]. So, that docs page will be removed in the near future, because it now goes against our recommendations. As I said in that thread, I personally would not recommend Enzyme at this point. Doesn't mean it's useless, or that people shouldn't use it at all, but it's not something I would use or tell people to use. Given the focus of that specific Redux testing docs page, I also don't see a _need_ to show both methods at once. I agree that the ecosystem shouldn't just chase new shiny, but there's also a lot to be said for actually keeping docs and recommendations up to date. I understand your concern in this particular case, but it also feels like you're extrapolating rather broadly from one specific issue. It's also the case that sometimes creating _new_ tools is the right answer. Yarn's release forced NPM to wake up from stagnation. There were dozens of Flux libraries when Redux came out. In the case of RTL, Kent created something because he saw a need, the community has seen that it's useful, and he's well within his rights to promote the tool that he created. [0] https://redux.js.org/recipes/using-immutablejs-with-redux https://redux.js.org/recipes/using-immutablejs-with-redux [1] https://redux.js.org/style-guide/style-guide#use-plain-javascript-objects-for-state https://redux.js.org/style-guide/style-guide#use-plain-javas... [2] https://redux.js.org/style-guide/style-guide#use-immer-for-writing-immutable-updates https://redux.js.org/style-guide/style-guide#use-immer-for-w...

joshribakoff 6y ago
Really all I want is instructions on wrapping the component under test in the redux provider that don’t presume I’m using Kent’s library. It should show how to wrap, not how to call RTLs proprietary helper function. I’m not arguing that you’re violating anyone’s “rights” here, I’m arguing some of these trends feel like nepotism. The fact Redux and React are seemingly abandoning official support of Enzyme, after years of recommending it, after some of its users have written 100s of thousands of tests, is my issue, and I feel like is directly related the article about "trends" OP posted about.

sdfhbdf 6y ago

I looked through Your comments. Seems like the compromise You suggested didn't go down well. I understand the maintainers POV - just avoid the flamewars. I liked Your soluton of weighing pros and cons of the different libraries. Maybe the next step would be to create a PR to add enzyme back as a suggested alternative and just build of off this PR?

joshribakoff 6y ago
Already did exactly that FYI