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As an Asian who went to an Ivy, I welcome this change. Yes, it will mask a policy of keeping the proportion of Asians lower than a race neutral policy. Yes, i

As an Asian who went to an Ivy, I welcome this change. Yes, it will mask a policy of keeping the proportion of Asians lower than a race neutral policy. Yes, it's racially discriminatory. Yes, it's somewhat unfair to Asians who are trying to get in. But no, being fair isn't the point of these schools. Nor is having the most academically excellent student population. If you want that, go to Berkeley or CalTech. The point is to provide an exclusive and desirable brand name. If the school ended up being 50% Asian like Californian colleges, it would be less diverse, less interesting place to go to school, and lose a lot of the cachet. I wouldn't want to go to a college that is 50% Asian and 1% black over a college that reflected the demographics of the country. Asians parents need to learn that life isn't just about testing better and having a better resume. Their kids will learn that lesson later on in life but time they learned it earlier.

JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
The problem with laying bare this purpose of these institutions is it destroys their credibility. If everyone knows it's just a social club, and that is formalized, it loses its prestige. It's beneficial to students who are enrolled due to family gifts that some students are enrolled due to being truly academically skilled. It furthers the impression the gift-giving segment may be skilled as well.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Hasn't this been the case for Ivies for generations? Maybe in the 20th century they moved away from the stereotype of East Coast prestige and old money to something more meritocratic, but that's probably been a few decades at best.
- aiisahik 6y ago
  Again, it's the prestige of the social club that gives them credibility - not the academic excellence of its students. The students who have mediocre grades but very rich parents actually might actually have a better chance at success and bring more prestige to the university than the academically excellent student who have poor parents.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
    That might be too much of a reduction. You need academically successful members of your institution to get eye-popping headlines like "X discovered at University Y". Those PR pieces are partially responsible for the prestige. Concur on the point of family wealth helping institutions.
    - aiisahik 6y ago
      "X discovered at University Y" happens in graduate schools - not at the undergraduate level. And when you're admitting students in graduate school (excluding MBA and JD), you want the most academically successful members. There is no affirmative action for the physics Ph.D program at Harvard.
msrmthehomeless 6y ago
> The point is to provide an exclusive and desirable brand name Brand names are fundamentally based on merit, not by implementing some initiative that any school can do in a year. Harvard is Harvard and not some no-name college because of adherence of its incredibly selective hiring process over the years
tikthot 6y ago
> The point is to provide an exclusive and desirable brand name Brand names are fundamentally based on merit, not by implementing some initiative that any school can do in a few months. Harvard is Harvard and not some no-name college because of its adherence to a incredibly selective admission process over the years.
magicsmoke 6y ago
Yep, Asians need to learn how to play the race politics card. All those white politicians didn't get into the white house because they had good grades, but because they knew how to play to the crowd. In a democratic society, if you don't know how to get others to like you you'll always be screwed by someone who does. Remember, the employee that gets promoted isn't the one that works the hardest, but the one that their coworkers like the best. Reality isn't school, you aren't judged by the letters on a report card but how well you can navigate through a society made of other individuals. Whether that's by kissing up to white male bosses on wall street or being surrounded by minority activists on main street, social manipulation skills gives much more leverage than hard technical skills.
- quadrifoliate 6y ago
  I think Asians also need to push back a little against the "there are too many Asians in tech" viewpoint. We face a considerable amount of racism and underpromotion (especially into management roles), but there is rarely any activism that's directed towards resolving these problems. A lot of initiatives I have seen in tech explicitly exclude Asians, so I'm wondering if there's initiatives directed at us.
  - aiisahik 6y ago
    Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind? Only East Asians are underpromoted. As and East Asian myself, I believe (1) You should read this article and study: https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/indian-v-chinese-bosses-in-america-inc https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/indian-v-chine... (2) there are plenty of Asians in tech. The real under presentation is in sports and entertainment. Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audition are they?
    - quadrifoliate 6y ago
      > Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind? This rather specious argument comes up so often I am going to start calling it the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" (sorry Arvind!). Do you also dismiss the concerns of women not being promoted into management roles by citing the examples of Mary Barra and Marissa Meyer? The US as a whole is very different from Silicon Valley. If the number of people making cow worship jokes at various jobs (here in the middle US) I have heard is any indication, I have a hard time believing they are also simultaneously giving Asians a fair shake at promotion. Regarding your points – I do believe that East Asians are likely underpromoted relative to their number in tech. One question that's not covered in there is language – of my friends who are first-generation immigrants, the South Asian ones generally have better English than the East/South-East Asian ones. > there are plenty of Asians in tech. I...wasn't arguing otherwise. My point was about not being promoted as fast as their counterparts, and into management roles. > Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audition are they? I don't know about parents, but plenty of South Asian actors have had problems getting auditions. Read about how Kalpen Suresh Modi's auditions skyrocketed when he Anglicized his name to Kal Penn [1], and how Aziz Ansari has had trouble with roles where he's required to fake an accent [2]. East Asians have had a hard time with getting roles in movies that are about East Asians, which was why Crazy Rich Asians was such a landmark (in that it actually had an Asian cast). [3] [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/obama/articles/2009/04/08/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-kal-penn https://www.usnews.com/news/obama/articles/2009/04/08/10-thi... [2] https://ew.com/article/2015/10/25/aziz-ansari-transformers-audition-indian-accent/ https://ew.com/article/2015/10/25/aziz-ansari-transformers-a... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/08/movies/crazy-rich-asians-cast.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/08/movies/crazy-rich-asians-...
user982 6y ago
> I wouldn't want to go to a college that is 50% Asian and 1% black over a college that reflected the demographics of the country. Did the Ivy you went to reflect the demographics of the country better than all other colleges?
- aiisahik 6y ago
  Better than Berkeley or UCLA? Yup. I had a black roommate. Coming from Australia I had never met a black person in my entire life. I spent christmases with his family. You think I would have gotten that experience at Berkeley?
macspoofing 6y ago
I agree with your perspective. Harvard is a brand name and that's what you pay for. The education is great, but then most accredited universities in the US will give you a quality education in your chosen field - especially the 4-year bachelor. In fact, paying $85k/year is not worth any bachelor's degree if you are paying out of pocket for it (and God forbid you took out any student loans). If you have a full scholarship, go for it! If you are affluent enough to afford it, go for it! For the rest, go for a less expensive but still quality university - and the US is blessed with tons of those (heck you can even do a 2-year community college degree, which may be free in some states, and transfer credits to an affiliated university - and that still will net you a quality education in the US).
jankyxenon 6y ago
I dunno why race is the primary organizing principle for a college.
- aiisahik 6y ago
  It's not. The real question is why do people assume that academics the only factor in admissions?
quadrifoliate 6y ago
As another Asian who kind of understands your viewpoint, I'm conflicted and unsure about this. Us Asians are in a weird place, because as a statistic we're very successful, but also subject to a fairly wide range of discrimination inside and outside the workplace. We already a harder time breaking into "Good Old Boy" all-white institutions, and I have lost count of the number of casually racist anti-Asian things I have heard at my past few jobs. > I wouldn't want to go to a college that is 50% Asian and 1% black over a college that reflected the demographics of the country. I would disagree. IMO I'd rather see Harvard and the Ivies become 50% Asian, to drive home the point that there is nothing special about Harvard and it's just a name (as an example -- consider the other two schools you mentioned. Going to Berkeley or CalTech is still considered prestigious as hell). Life should be a holistic admission, but a lot of employers still use schools as a filter. So why should Asians be denied the opportunity to prove that that heuristic is imperfect? Otherwise, Harvard will used as a filter that implicitly discriminates against Asians later in life. Think ”Oh he's from Harvard, good thing it's not one of those all-Asian colleges” which I'm sure is said behind closed doors in many rooms today and which you have perhaps benefited from.
- aiisahik 6y ago
  Sorry you encountered racism. That sucks and hope you work with better people in the future. As someone who lives in the US but was raised in Australia, I have to say that I've encountered a lot more ignorance in the US but a lot less racism. I think it's getter better but probably not quickly enough. > So why should Asians be denied the opportunity to prove that that heuristic is imperfect? HAHA only Asians and rich white legacy parents would consider a rejection by Harvard to be a denial of opportunity worth complaining about. Harvard IS special BECAUSE of the name. Because it lends an air of prestige, legacy, and class that CANNOT be obtained by merely academic excellence. But just because it is special does not mean it has to provide an equal opportunity to all to obtain it by a transparent set of criteria. The frustratingly opaque unobtainability of the admissions to ivy is EXACTLY what gives it prestige and the exact reason why it cannot allow a fair academic process to determine admission. > Otherwise, Harvard will used as a filter that implicitly discriminates against Asians later in life. Think ”Oh he's from Harvard, good thing it's not one of those all-Asian colleges” which I'm sure is said behind closed doors in many rooms today and which you have perhaps benefited from. I went to Berkeley for grad school. Now I am a CTO at a company looking at resumes. I would hire a Berkeley grad over an ivy grad ANY day because I know how competitive and difficult the STEM programs at Berkeley are. The implicit presumption of superiority of an ivy degree over a Cal degree comes more from the mentality of the student body and the parents more so than from the employers. And with that I will venture to point out the ironic fact that Asians complaining about unfairness of Harvard admissions actually further highlights the fact that Harvard is more unattainable and thus desirable than other schools. The only thing that would really hurt Harvard is if Asians just said: "oh we don't want to get into those racist colleges anyway" .... but that would never happen :P
malandrew 6y ago
Given my recent experience with quite a few graduates from all three schools you mentioned, I'll take a Berkeley or CalTech graduate over one from Harvard all else being equal. This would not have been the case 10 years ago, but in my observation the quality of the rigor of thinking from undergraduates coming from Harvard has slipped dramatically relative to these two other schools, especially as the most recent vintage of Harvard undergraduates increasingly tend to argue from emotion and feelings instead of reason compared to Berkeley and CalTech graduates.
- aiisahik 6y ago
  100% agree.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago

The problem with laying bare this purpose of these institutions is it destroys their credibility. If everyone knows it's just a social club, and that is formalized, it loses its prestige. It's beneficial to students who are enrolled due to family gifts that some students are enrolled due to being truly academically skilled. It furthers the impression the gift-giving segment may be skilled as well.

Apocryphon 6y ago
Hasn't this been the case for Ivies for generations? Maybe in the 20th century they moved away from the stereotype of East Coast prestige and old money to something more meritocratic, but that's probably been a few decades at best.
aiisahik 6y ago
Again, it's the prestige of the social club that gives them credibility - not the academic excellence of its students. The students who have mediocre grades but very rich parents actually might actually have a better chance at success and bring more prestige to the university than the academically excellent student who have poor parents.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
  That might be too much of a reduction. You need academically successful members of your institution to get eye-popping headlines like "X discovered at University Y". Those PR pieces are partially responsible for the prestige. Concur on the point of family wealth helping institutions.
  - aiisahik 6y ago
    "X discovered at University Y" happens in graduate schools - not at the undergraduate level. And when you're admitting students in graduate school (excluding MBA and JD), you want the most academically successful members. There is no affirmative action for the physics Ph.D program at Harvard.

msrmthehomeless 6y ago

> The point is to provide an exclusive and desirable brand name Brand names are fundamentally based on merit, not by implementing some initiative that any school can do in a year. Harvard is Harvard and not some no-name college because of adherence of its incredibly selective hiring process over the years

tikthot 6y ago

> The point is to provide an exclusive and desirable brand name Brand names are fundamentally based on merit, not by implementing some initiative that any school can do in a few months. Harvard is Harvard and not some no-name college because of its adherence to a incredibly selective admission process over the years.

magicsmoke 6y ago

Yep, Asians need to learn how to play the race politics card. All those white politicians didn't get into the white house because they had good grades, but because they knew how to play to the crowd. In a democratic society, if you don't know how to get others to like you you'll always be screwed by someone who does. Remember, the employee that gets promoted isn't the one that works the hardest, but the one that their coworkers like the best. Reality isn't school, you aren't judged by the letters on a report card but how well you can navigate through a society made of other individuals. Whether that's by kissing up to white male bosses on wall street or being surrounded by minority activists on main street, social manipulation skills gives much more leverage than hard technical skills.

quadrifoliate 6y ago
I think Asians also need to push back a little against the "there are too many Asians in tech" viewpoint. We face a considerable amount of racism and underpromotion (especially into management roles), but there is rarely any activism that's directed towards resolving these problems. A lot of initiatives I have seen in tech explicitly exclude Asians, so I'm wondering if there's initiatives directed at us.
- aiisahik 6y ago
  Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind? Only East Asians are underpromoted. As and East Asian myself, I believe (1) You should read this article and study: https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/indian-v-chinese-bosses-in-america-inc https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/indian-v-chine... (2) there are plenty of Asians in tech. The real under presentation is in sports and entertainment. Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audition are they?
  - quadrifoliate 6y ago
    > Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind? This rather specious argument comes up so often I am going to start calling it the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" (sorry Arvind!). Do you also dismiss the concerns of women not being promoted into management roles by citing the examples of Mary Barra and Marissa Meyer? The US as a whole is very different from Silicon Valley. If the number of people making cow worship jokes at various jobs (here in the middle US) I have heard is any indication, I have a hard time believing they are also simultaneously giving Asians a fair shake at promotion. Regarding your points – I do believe that East Asians are likely underpromoted relative to their number in tech. One question that's not covered in there is language – of my friends who are first-generation immigrants, the South Asian ones generally have better English than the East/South-East Asian ones. > there are plenty of Asians in tech. I...wasn't arguing otherwise. My point was about not being promoted as fast as their counterparts, and into management roles. > Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audition are they? I don't know about parents, but plenty of South Asian actors have had problems getting auditions. Read about how Kalpen Suresh Modi's auditions skyrocketed when he Anglicized his name to Kal Penn [1], and how Aziz Ansari has had trouble with roles where he's required to fake an accent [2]. East Asians have had a hard time with getting roles in movies that are about East Asians, which was why Crazy Rich Asians was such a landmark (in that it actually had an Asian cast). [3] [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/obama/articles/2009/04/08/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-kal-penn https://www.usnews.com/news/obama/articles/2009/04/08/10-thi... [2] https://ew.com/article/2015/10/25/aziz-ansari-transformers-audition-indian-accent/ https://ew.com/article/2015/10/25/aziz-ansari-transformers-a... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/08/movies/crazy-rich-asians-cast.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/08/movies/crazy-rich-asians-...

user982 6y ago

> I wouldn't want to go to a college that is 50% Asian and 1% black over a college that reflected the demographics of the country. Did the Ivy you went to reflect the demographics of the country better than all other colleges?

aiisahik 6y ago
Better than Berkeley or UCLA? Yup. I had a black roommate. Coming from Australia I had never met a black person in my entire life. I spent christmases with his family. You think I would have gotten that experience at Berkeley?

macspoofing 6y ago

I agree with your perspective. Harvard is a brand name and that's what you pay for. The education is great, but then most accredited universities in the US will give you a quality education in your chosen field - especially the 4-year bachelor. In fact, paying $85k/year is not worth any bachelor's degree if you are paying out of pocket for it (and God forbid you took out any student loans). If you have a full scholarship, go for it! If you are affluent enough to afford it, go for it! For the rest, go for a less expensive but still quality university - and the US is blessed with tons of those (heck you can even do a 2-year community college degree, which may be free in some states, and transfer credits to an affiliated university - and that still will net you a quality education in the US).

jankyxenon 6y ago

I dunno why race is the primary organizing principle for a college.

aiisahik 6y ago
It's not. The real question is why do people assume that academics the only factor in admissions?

quadrifoliate 6y ago

As another Asian who kind of understands your viewpoint, I'm conflicted and unsure about this. Us Asians are in a weird place, because as a statistic we're very successful, but also subject to a fairly wide range of discrimination inside and outside the workplace. We already a harder time breaking into "Good Old Boy" all-white institutions, and I have lost count of the number of casually racist anti-Asian things I have heard at my past few jobs. > I wouldn't want to go to a college that is 50% Asian and 1% black over a college that reflected the demographics of the country. I would disagree. IMO I'd rather see Harvard and the Ivies become 50% Asian, to drive home the point that there is nothing special about Harvard and it's just a name (as an example -- consider the other two schools you mentioned. Going to Berkeley or CalTech is still considered prestigious as hell). Life should be a holistic admission, but a lot of employers still use schools as a filter. So why should Asians be denied the opportunity to prove that that heuristic is imperfect? Otherwise, Harvard will used as a filter that implicitly discriminates against Asians later in life. Think ”Oh he's from Harvard, good thing it's not one of those all-Asian colleges” which I'm sure is said behind closed doors in many rooms today and which you have perhaps benefited from.

aiisahik 6y ago
Sorry you encountered racism. That sucks and hope you work with better people in the future. As someone who lives in the US but was raised in Australia, I have to say that I've encountered a lot more ignorance in the US but a lot less racism. I think it's getter better but probably not quickly enough. > So why should Asians be denied the opportunity to prove that that heuristic is imperfect? HAHA only Asians and rich white legacy parents would consider a rejection by Harvard to be a denial of opportunity worth complaining about. Harvard IS special BECAUSE of the name. Because it lends an air of prestige, legacy, and class that CANNOT be obtained by merely academic excellence. But just because it is special does not mean it has to provide an equal opportunity to all to obtain it by a transparent set of criteria. The frustratingly opaque unobtainability of the admissions to ivy is EXACTLY what gives it prestige and the exact reason why it cannot allow a fair academic process to determine admission. > Otherwise, Harvard will used as a filter that implicitly discriminates against Asians later in life. Think ”Oh he's from Harvard, good thing it's not one of those all-Asian colleges” which I'm sure is said behind closed doors in many rooms today and which you have perhaps benefited from. I went to Berkeley for grad school. Now I am a CTO at a company looking at resumes. I would hire a Berkeley grad over an ivy grad ANY day because I know how competitive and difficult the STEM programs at Berkeley are. The implicit presumption of superiority of an ivy degree over a Cal degree comes more from the mentality of the student body and the parents more so than from the employers. And with that I will venture to point out the ironic fact that Asians complaining about unfairness of Harvard admissions actually further highlights the fact that Harvard is more unattainable and thus desirable than other schools. The only thing that would really hurt Harvard is if Asians just said: "oh we don't want to get into those racist colleges anyway" .... but that would never happen :P

malandrew 6y ago

Given my recent experience with quite a few graduates from all three schools you mentioned, I'll take a Berkeley or CalTech graduate over one from Harvard all else being equal. This would not have been the case 10 years ago, but in my observation the quality of the rigor of thinking from undergraduates coming from Harvard has slipped dramatically relative to these two other schools, especially as the most recent vintage of Harvard undergraduates increasingly tend to argue from emotion and feelings instead of reason compared to Berkeley and CalTech graduates.

aiisahik 6y ago
100% agree.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]