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Why would apology no longer be necessary? The crimes committed by Germans against the population of the USSR are unspeakable. One can only hope that apologies

Why would apology no longer be necessary? The crimes committed by Germans against the population of the USSR are unspeakable. One can only hope that apologies like these will never again be necessary.

senderista 6y ago
And the USSR undertook the greatest ethnic cleansing of the 20th century in response. Should they apologize for that?
- the_af 6y ago
  The USSR ethnically cleansed Germany in response? What? Or do you mean something else? Had Nazi Germany prevailed, it is estimated about 30 million of all Slavs in Eastern Europe would have been cleansed, as per the stated goals of Generalplan Ost [1]. Getting rid of "undesirables" and "surplus population" on one of the widest scales mankind had ever seen was one of the main goals of Nazi expansion. They started to carry out this plan, but thankfully losing the war put a stop to that. On the other hand, the USSR did prevail, and made East Germany into a puppet state. We can see the results without speculation. Indeed this resulted in repression and suppression and execution of political dissidents, let's not mince words here. But there are still Germans alive, aren't there? Had Nazi Germany prevailed, there would be few, if any, Slavs -- Russians, Poles or whatever -- alive today. The two cases aren't even remotely comparable. ---- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
  - zeveb 6y ago
    > The USSR ethnically cleansed Germany in response? What? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German... In particular, postwar Poland basically moved west: the Soviet Union kept the 77.6 thousand square miles of Polish territory it had captured when both Germany and Russia partitioned it in 1939, while Poland was given 48.1 thousand miles of German territory. The Soviet-backed Polish government cleansed the formerly-German territories of ethnic Germans. Given the far worse behaviour of Germany during the war (I believe most Germans survived the ethnic cleansing committed by Poland, while the goal of Nazi Germany was extermination of the Poles), it can be a bit difficult to care about the suffering of Germans. But consider that IIRC roughly two million Germans died in the expulsions from Poland and other countries, and no doubt at least a few of those were innocent women and children (as, of course, were many of Nazi Germany's victims). Two wrongs do not make a right, and mass murder of innocent civilians is always wrong.
    - the_af 6y ago
      > Two wrongs do not make a right, and mass murder of innocent civilians is always wrong. Fully agreed. It's hard to see the two events as similar, though. The scale (and intent) alone is mind-boggingly different. The Germans intended to wipe out Slavs (and other undesirables), and you couldn't opt out of this by swallowing the party line or swearing allegiance to Germany (just as you couldn't opt out of being a Jew -- Nazis didn't care about your religious beliefs, if any; they considered Jewishness a "race" to be exterminated). At best you could hope for their bullshit racial policies to deem you "Germanic", if you looked white enough and weren't Jewish. Compare this with Germans under the Soviet sphere of influence. Puppets, maybe, but alive as long as they cooperated with the ruling ideology. There was no plan to ethnically cleanse them to make room for Soviet citizens in German land.
      - cygx 6y ago
        Compare this with Germans under the Soviet sphere of influence. Puppets, maybe, but alive as long as they cooperated with the ruling ideology. There was no plan to ethnically cleanse them to make room for Soviet citizens in German land. The USSR declared Germans in the annexed territories illegal residents. Going by Wikipedia, in 1947/48, officially, 102,125 Germans got shipped from East Prussia to the Soviet Zone, though only 99,481 arrived there (one reason for this was that food wasn't always provided on a journey that took 4-7 days by train). The GDR attributed this discrepancy to a 'calculation error'. There's also the issue of German orphans that were left behind (which are known as 'Wolskinder'). The lucky ones got adopted (eg by Lithuanian farmers), changed their names, and pretended not to be German. The unlucky ones were exploited as cheap labour, starved or got killed. His criticism of the treatment of German civilians was one of the things that got Solzhenitsyn arrested.
        the_af 6y ago
        I understand all of this. However, again look at the numbers and planned genocide: the Nazis aimed at killing -- murdering, not expelling, mind you -- most of the Slavic population of Eastern Europe. About 30 million people would have been killed, both through starvation and shooting/gassing if they didn't die fast enough, because they were deemed vermin and "surplus" population. And this wasn't even retaliation for anything, it was planned in cold blood. Did the Soviets exterminate all Germans in their sphere of influence once they won the war? What were the Nazi plans had they won (and which they partially implemented during the war)? This doesn't excuse even a single German civilian killed by the Soviets. But the scale and planning are tremendously different, which is why the comparison makes little sense. I think the latter day equivocation that both sides were more or less the same is a regrettable artifact of Cold War thinking.
ellimilial 6y ago
Perhaps I should have been more precise. You're absolutely right about being apologetic for the atrocities committed. I was referring to trying to justify Soviet Union's attacks on Poland and Finland as well as annexation of parts of Romania. E.g.'The Soviet Union was prepared to allow other nations to fight one another so that it could have a share of the spoils'. It was not 'other nations' fighting and Soviet-German alliance provided room for Soviet expansionism.
dmichulke 6y ago
It's probably not what OP meant but an apology is also no longer possible. Assuming of course I can only apologize for something where I was somehow involved in the first place.

senderista 6y ago

And the USSR undertook the greatest ethnic cleansing of the 20th century in response. Should they apologize for that?

the_af 6y ago
The USSR ethnically cleansed Germany in response? What? Or do you mean something else? Had Nazi Germany prevailed, it is estimated about 30 million of all Slavs in Eastern Europe would have been cleansed, as per the stated goals of Generalplan Ost [1]. Getting rid of "undesirables" and "surplus population" on one of the widest scales mankind had ever seen was one of the main goals of Nazi expansion. They started to carry out this plan, but thankfully losing the war put a stop to that. On the other hand, the USSR did prevail, and made East Germany into a puppet state. We can see the results without speculation. Indeed this resulted in repression and suppression and execution of political dissidents, let's not mince words here. But there are still Germans alive, aren't there? Had Nazi Germany prevailed, there would be few, if any, Slavs -- Russians, Poles or whatever -- alive today. The two cases aren't even remotely comparable. ---- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
- zeveb 6y ago
  > The USSR ethnically cleansed Germany in response? What? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German... In particular, postwar Poland basically moved west: the Soviet Union kept the 77.6 thousand square miles of Polish territory it had captured when both Germany and Russia partitioned it in 1939, while Poland was given 48.1 thousand miles of German territory. The Soviet-backed Polish government cleansed the formerly-German territories of ethnic Germans. Given the far worse behaviour of Germany during the war (I believe most Germans survived the ethnic cleansing committed by Poland, while the goal of Nazi Germany was extermination of the Poles), it can be a bit difficult to care about the suffering of Germans. But consider that IIRC roughly two million Germans died in the expulsions from Poland and other countries, and no doubt at least a few of those were innocent women and children (as, of course, were many of Nazi Germany's victims). Two wrongs do not make a right, and mass murder of innocent civilians is always wrong.
  - the_af 6y ago
    > Two wrongs do not make a right, and mass murder of innocent civilians is always wrong. Fully agreed. It's hard to see the two events as similar, though. The scale (and intent) alone is mind-boggingly different. The Germans intended to wipe out Slavs (and other undesirables), and you couldn't opt out of this by swallowing the party line or swearing allegiance to Germany (just as you couldn't opt out of being a Jew -- Nazis didn't care about your religious beliefs, if any; they considered Jewishness a "race" to be exterminated). At best you could hope for their bullshit racial policies to deem you "Germanic", if you looked white enough and weren't Jewish. Compare this with Germans under the Soviet sphere of influence. Puppets, maybe, but alive as long as they cooperated with the ruling ideology. There was no plan to ethnically cleanse them to make room for Soviet citizens in German land.
    - cygx 6y ago
      Compare this with Germans under the Soviet sphere of influence. Puppets, maybe, but alive as long as they cooperated with the ruling ideology. There was no plan to ethnically cleanse them to make room for Soviet citizens in German land. The USSR declared Germans in the annexed territories illegal residents. Going by Wikipedia, in 1947/48, officially, 102,125 Germans got shipped from East Prussia to the Soviet Zone, though only 99,481 arrived there (one reason for this was that food wasn't always provided on a journey that took 4-7 days by train). The GDR attributed this discrepancy to a 'calculation error'. There's also the issue of German orphans that were left behind (which are known as 'Wolskinder'). The lucky ones got adopted (eg by Lithuanian farmers), changed their names, and pretended not to be German. The unlucky ones were exploited as cheap labour, starved or got killed. His criticism of the treatment of German civilians was one of the things that got Solzhenitsyn arrested.
      - the_af 6y ago
        I understand all of this. However, again look at the numbers and planned genocide: the Nazis aimed at killing -- murdering, not expelling, mind you -- most of the Slavic population of Eastern Europe. About 30 million people would have been killed, both through starvation and shooting/gassing if they didn't die fast enough, because they were deemed vermin and "surplus" population. And this wasn't even retaliation for anything, it was planned in cold blood. Did the Soviets exterminate all Germans in their sphere of influence once they won the war? What were the Nazi plans had they won (and which they partially implemented during the war)? This doesn't excuse even a single German civilian killed by the Soviets. But the scale and planning are tremendously different, which is why the comparison makes little sense. I think the latter day equivocation that both sides were more or less the same is a regrettable artifact of Cold War thinking.

ellimilial 6y ago

Perhaps I should have been more precise. You're absolutely right about being apologetic for the atrocities committed. I was referring to trying to justify Soviet Union's attacks on Poland and Finland as well as annexation of parts of Romania. E.g.'The Soviet Union was prepared to allow other nations to fight one another so that it could have a share of the spoils'. It was not 'other nations' fighting and Soviet-German alliance provided room for Soviet expansionism.

dmichulke 6y ago

It's probably not what OP meant but an apology is also no longer possible. Assuming of course I can only apologize for something where I was somehow involved in the first place.