7 ms·

Body by Victoria (2009)

124 points by xanthine 6y ago

dang 6y ago
Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1017726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1017726
spiritplumber 6y ago
This is an excellent "how to catch a photoshop" guide.
azalemeth 6y ago
It's worth re-mentioning that the model in this article had her skin tone whitened significantly as part of the photoshopping, as well as nipple removal/bust enhancement/handbag "removal" etc. Basically, they made her look less black.
cge 6y ago
Error Level Analysis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_level_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_level_analysis) is controversial, and some people would argue that its usual application is pseudoscientific. If you're interested in ELA, I'd encourage you to try it on some control photographs you've taken yourself, and know are unmodified, particularly photographs that have objects with considerably different textures, like textured fabrics. Trying it on lossless screenshots can also be amusing.
- wheybags 6y ago
  > and know are unmodified Cameras these days do all sorts of digital processing themselves, especially on phones, which might make this a little hard
  - fredophile 6y ago
    If it finds problems in images directly out of the camera that makes its use for identifying image manipulation suspect.
- barbegal 6y ago
  ELA does work when someone manipulates an existing JPEG. If you take a low quality JPEG, paste in part of a high quality JPEG and save in high quality you can easily tell which area has been modified. Performing ELA on the output JPEGs when the editing has been performed on the high resolution raw images in Photoshop does not work. The down-sampling process effectively normalizes the noise levels. The ELA analysis in this article is pure nonsense, it is simply highlighting the areas with high frequency components such as the dress texture, fine hairs and features on the face. To do a proper study like this you need to compare against a sample of similar images which you know have not been manipulated.
- JadeNB 6y ago
  > Error Level Analysis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_level_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_level_analysis) is controversial, and some people would argue that its usual application is pseudoscientific. In this case, isn't there a sort of "end justifies the means" applicable to this analysis, coming from the fact that the author now has access to the (closer to) original photo? http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/329-The-Secret-is-Out.html http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/329-The...
cseleborg 6y ago
The apparently shoddy job (handbag, tiles, etc) suggests to me that whitening dark skin tones, enlarging busts and thinning arms and legs is so banal it's not even worth paying a skilled artist for. To me, this example serves as a stark reminder that women's bodies are still expected to conform to absurd norms in the media. FFS, can we get past this already!?
- Ghjklov 6y ago
  People respond to incentives. They must've figured out at some point that using attractive models for advertising sells better to normal, average people. Not all models you have on hand will be attractive enough for the magazine, so they can supplement with Photoshop. Even if you regulate away Photoshop usage in the marketing/advertising industry, they'd just have to start only hiring super attractive models right? Maybe we could force companies to use average looking models? I don't know, but there's a lot of ways you could approach it. The simplest but most difficult solution is to change people. I know the first reaction is to think that "Wow, it's all those pervert men's fault for these absurd norms and expectations of women!" but then I remember these are advertisements targeted to women. What to do?
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    C19 has been estimated to cause a 5% dip in global production. Given how controversial this small drop has been, suggesting that people be comfortable with their natural selves is likely to receive some amount of push-back. (it'd affect not only "beauty" and "fashion", but probably also some fraction of "automotive") https://britishbeautycouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Value_of_beauty_FINAL.pdf https://britishbeautycouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/... has (p.28) "The £7.0 billion [tax] contribution potentially supports vital public service work, and was equivalent to the salaries of 250,000 nurses and midwives" The oldest russian fashion magazine of which I am aware is "Mod": still on the newsstand (Vol 63x) and published since the 1940's. http://jurnali-online.ru/zhurnal-mod http://jurnali-online.ru/zhurnal-mod https://books.google.ch/books?id=DZDCCAAAQBAJ&pg=PP211&lpg=PP211&dq=журнал+мод+1940-х+годов&source=bl&ots=omVJDxSnsS&sig=ACfU3U1JmB_WE8OPXhn9PnHI-x8xexJDZg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiaw9v6wojqAhUWQEEAHceyDYI4ChDoATABegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=журнал%20мод%201940-х%20годов&f=false https://books.google.ch/books?id=DZDCCAAAQBAJ&pg=PP211&lpg=P... The creative for "Does she...or doesn't she?" knew her target audience: https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/08/nyregion/shirley-polykoff-90-ad-writer-whose-query-colored-a-nation.html https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/08/nyregion/shirley-polykoff...
saeranv 6y ago
What exactly is he performing the PCA on? I assume the image is concatenated into a 1D vector, so what makes up the matrix that's used to generate the eigenvectors? RGB values?
- JadeNB 6y ago
  See, for example, slide 17 ff. of http://people.ciirc.cvut.cz/~hlavac/TeachPresEn/11ImageProc/15PCA.pdf http://people.ciirc.cvut.cz/~hlavac/TeachPresEn/11ImageProc/... .
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Interesting that bottom up techniques come to the same low-dimensional conclusions as top down techniques. https://i.redd.it/1zk6cin78ng31.jpg https://i.redd.it/1zk6cin78ng31.jpg
  - saeranv 6y ago
    I may be getting this wrong, but doesn't that slide show the PCA being done on multiple images? Each image is 321 x 261, which concats to a 83781 vector. Then they're repeating that for 32 images producing a 83781 x 32 matrix, which they then apply the PCA on to get 32 principle components. When you have only one image, what's making up the columns of the matrix (assuming rows = 1D image vector)?
    - JadeNB 6y ago
      > I may be getting this wrong, but doesn't that slide show the PCA being done on multiple images? Each image is 321 x 261, which concats to a 83781 vector. Then they're repeating that for 32 images producing a 83781 x 32 matrix, which they then apply the PCA on to get 32 principle components. Yes, you are right (except that it's 'principal'), and I didn't read my link carefully. I am a mathematician whose specialty is not a million miles away from these kind of signal-reconstruction techniques, but far enough away that I can't give any better answer from personal knowledge. Sorry!
globular-toast 6y ago
This is interesting when it comes to being able to spot a Photoshop. But this seems to be about more than that. It seems to be about casting shame on to Victoria's Secret for using Photoshop. Why is that? They are selling a dress and want to show it in the best light. Is the author claiming false advertising? The model is being compensated (probably handsomely) for the use of her image. She should consider herself lucky that Photoshop exists because she's clearly not exactly what they want, but close enough.
- galoisgirl 6y ago
  They answered in this FAQ: http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/346-Body-of-Answers.html http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/346-Bod...
throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
Not on topic, but the changes to the pics bring out the horror masks. Check the black skull leering out of the gloom in 2nd pic, the joker's red/green skull-face of the 4th, the black cheshire cat grin of the last.
zeristor 6y ago
It’s a bit grim that no one is using her name; talk about depersonalisation.

124 points by xanthine 6y ago

dang 6y ago

Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1017726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1017726

spiritplumber 6y ago

This is an excellent "how to catch a photoshop" guide.

azalemeth 6y ago

It's worth re-mentioning that the model in this article had her skin tone whitened significantly as part of the photoshopping, as well as nipple removal/bust enhancement/handbag "removal" etc. Basically, they made her look less black.

cge 6y ago

Error Level Analysis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_level_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_level_analysis) is controversial, and some people would argue that its usual application is pseudoscientific. If you're interested in ELA, I'd encourage you to try it on some control photographs you've taken yourself, and know are unmodified, particularly photographs that have objects with considerably different textures, like textured fabrics. Trying it on lossless screenshots can also be amusing.

wheybags 6y ago
> and know are unmodified Cameras these days do all sorts of digital processing themselves, especially on phones, which might make this a little hard
- fredophile 6y ago
  If it finds problems in images directly out of the camera that makes its use for identifying image manipulation suspect.
barbegal 6y ago
ELA does work when someone manipulates an existing JPEG. If you take a low quality JPEG, paste in part of a high quality JPEG and save in high quality you can easily tell which area has been modified. Performing ELA on the output JPEGs when the editing has been performed on the high resolution raw images in Photoshop does not work. The down-sampling process effectively normalizes the noise levels. The ELA analysis in this article is pure nonsense, it is simply highlighting the areas with high frequency components such as the dress texture, fine hairs and features on the face. To do a proper study like this you need to compare against a sample of similar images which you know have not been manipulated.
JadeNB 6y ago
> Error Level Analysis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_level_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_level_analysis) is controversial, and some people would argue that its usual application is pseudoscientific. In this case, isn't there a sort of "end justifies the means" applicable to this analysis, coming from the fact that the author now has access to the (closer to) original photo? http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/329-The-Secret-is-Out.html http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/329-The...

cseleborg 6y ago

The apparently shoddy job (handbag, tiles, etc) suggests to me that whitening dark skin tones, enlarging busts and thinning arms and legs is so banal it's not even worth paying a skilled artist for. To me, this example serves as a stark reminder that women's bodies are still expected to conform to absurd norms in the media. FFS, can we get past this already!?

Ghjklov 6y ago
People respond to incentives. They must've figured out at some point that using attractive models for advertising sells better to normal, average people. Not all models you have on hand will be attractive enough for the magazine, so they can supplement with Photoshop. Even if you regulate away Photoshop usage in the marketing/advertising industry, they'd just have to start only hiring super attractive models right? Maybe we could force companies to use average looking models? I don't know, but there's a lot of ways you could approach it. The simplest but most difficult solution is to change people. I know the first reaction is to think that "Wow, it's all those pervert men's fault for these absurd norms and expectations of women!" but then I remember these are advertisements targeted to women. What to do?
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  C19 has been estimated to cause a 5% dip in global production. Given how controversial this small drop has been, suggesting that people be comfortable with their natural selves is likely to receive some amount of push-back. (it'd affect not only "beauty" and "fashion", but probably also some fraction of "automotive") https://britishbeautycouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Value_of_beauty_FINAL.pdf https://britishbeautycouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/... has (p.28) "The £7.0 billion [tax] contribution potentially supports vital public service work, and was equivalent to the salaries of 250,000 nurses and midwives" The oldest russian fashion magazine of which I am aware is "Mod": still on the newsstand (Vol 63x) and published since the 1940's. http://jurnali-online.ru/zhurnal-mod http://jurnali-online.ru/zhurnal-mod https://books.google.ch/books?id=DZDCCAAAQBAJ&pg=PP211&lpg=PP211&dq=журнал+мод+1940-х+годов&source=bl&ots=omVJDxSnsS&sig=ACfU3U1JmB_WE8OPXhn9PnHI-x8xexJDZg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiaw9v6wojqAhUWQEEAHceyDYI4ChDoATABegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=журнал%20мод%201940-х%20годов&f=false https://books.google.ch/books?id=DZDCCAAAQBAJ&pg=PP211&lpg=P... The creative for "Does she...or doesn't she?" knew her target audience: https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/08/nyregion/shirley-polykoff-90-ad-writer-whose-query-colored-a-nation.html https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/08/nyregion/shirley-polykoff...

saeranv 6y ago

What exactly is he performing the PCA on? I assume the image is concatenated into a 1D vector, so what makes up the matrix that's used to generate the eigenvectors? RGB values?

JadeNB 6y ago
See, for example, slide 17 ff. of http://people.ciirc.cvut.cz/~hlavac/TeachPresEn/11ImageProc/15PCA.pdf http://people.ciirc.cvut.cz/~hlavac/TeachPresEn/11ImageProc/... .
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Interesting that bottom up techniques come to the same low-dimensional conclusions as top down techniques. https://i.redd.it/1zk6cin78ng31.jpg https://i.redd.it/1zk6cin78ng31.jpg
- saeranv 6y ago
  I may be getting this wrong, but doesn't that slide show the PCA being done on multiple images? Each image is 321 x 261, which concats to a 83781 vector. Then they're repeating that for 32 images producing a 83781 x 32 matrix, which they then apply the PCA on to get 32 principle components. When you have only one image, what's making up the columns of the matrix (assuming rows = 1D image vector)?
  - JadeNB 6y ago
    > I may be getting this wrong, but doesn't that slide show the PCA being done on multiple images? Each image is 321 x 261, which concats to a 83781 vector. Then they're repeating that for 32 images producing a 83781 x 32 matrix, which they then apply the PCA on to get 32 principle components. Yes, you are right (except that it's 'principal'), and I didn't read my link carefully. I am a mathematician whose specialty is not a million miles away from these kind of signal-reconstruction techniques, but far enough away that I can't give any better answer from personal knowledge. Sorry!

globular-toast 6y ago

This is interesting when it comes to being able to spot a Photoshop. But this seems to be about more than that. It seems to be about casting shame on to Victoria's Secret for using Photoshop. Why is that? They are selling a dress and want to show it in the best light. Is the author claiming false advertising? The model is being compensated (probably handsomely) for the use of her image. She should consider herself lucky that Photoshop exists because she's clearly not exactly what they want, but close enough.

galoisgirl 6y ago
They answered in this FAQ: http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/346-Body-of-Answers.html http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/346-Bod...

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

Not on topic, but the changes to the pics bring out the horror masks. Check the black skull leering out of the gloom in 2nd pic, the joker's red/green skull-face of the 4th, the black cheshire cat grin of the last.

zeristor 6y ago

It’s a bit grim that no one is using her name; talk about depersonalisation.