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Why does actual EPA range numbers matter, when we all know they aren't perfectly accurate? They aren't accurate for ICE cars either. The point is Tesla has inc

by zpeti 6y ago

Why does actual EPA range numbers matter, when we all know they aren't perfectly accurate? They aren't accurate for ICE cars either. The point is Tesla has increased their range yet again. There is no disputing this fact. If people were buying Teslas before, they're getting even more value out of it now. It seems most people here find this EPA discrepancy a great justification for criticising Tesla, but I highly doubt anyone owns a Tesla who is doing the criticising. Most Tesla owners were happy to buy the Model S at 265 EPA range. Now its 400, almost 50% more. Who cares if that actually means 300 miles? That 300 miles is still awesome, and if its good enough to buy a Tesla, buy one. If not, don't.

short_sells_poo 6y ago
Because ideally consumers should be allowed to make informed decisions, which is not possible if one party - willingly or not - misrepresents the numbers. Tesla should be criticized for every number they inflate. Every time they pull some marketing crap, they should be called out on it. If it's such a benefit as you write, why do they feel the need inflate the numbers? What happened to honesty among engineers? Understated performance, instead of throwing around huge numbers that are technically possible but are nothing short of misleading for the consumers? I suppose it clearly works for Tesla, but my support goes to the company who claims a conservative number that I'm actually likely to exceed in reality.
- zpeti 6y ago
  Is there evidence that they are misleading or cheating? The EPA numbers (I assume) are arrived at with the same methodology for all cars. It's indepedent right? (I have no idea). So how is Tesla at fault here, if their cars do well. Btw, you can get the EPA range if you drive around 55-60mph... So it is misleading?
  - mywittyname 6y ago
    It is not independent. The EPA defines the test methodology and the manufacture conducts the test themselves. There are some loopholes that manufactures can leverage to improve their score, like offering a model without A/C, tiny tires, or tall gearrs; having a "eco" mode; or having a shift light on the dashboard. The EPA test methodology is actually pretty sound. It includes things like multiple wide-open throttle accelerations to highways speeds. The problems appear to be lack of independent testing and the existence of loopholes mentioned above. Companies like Honda seem to always beat EPA #s and Ford always seems to fall very short of the numbers.
    - Kirby64 6y ago
      All those things you list as 'loopholes' aren't something Tesla is doing here, besides maybe the smaller tires (which really, aren't undersized, they're just the smallest ones they offer happen to get best range). I'm not sure what you'd expect, given that every single defined test can be gamed. 'Real world' is different for everyone. And if you drive 80mph, every single car ever will underperform compared to the stated EPA range/mpg.
MDWolinski 6y ago
For me, the EPA range numbers are important because I'm in the market to buy a new car later this year and I'd like a fair gauge to compare vehicles on expected milage (part of the reason is wife has mileage anxiety, which I believe a lot of non-EV people have as well). Looking at the first article the lead commenter posted that compared "real-world" to EPA ranges, Tesla misses the EPA range by an average of 22%. Other vehicles that miss the EPA range average 4.5% off. Of course the EPA range is as much an estimate as the testing is and conditions change between testing and real world scenarios, but what's so different with the Tesla vehicles during EPA testing compared to real-world testing to cause such a large drop-off compared to other vehicles. We can rightly question the EPA testing methodology in the first place meaning, what are they running (or not running) that regular people would. For example, does EPA not run the A/C during the test? I'm not accusing the Tesla A/C from excessive battery draw, as it's just an example. Yes, having a larger battery is welcome, so with an EPA range of 400 miles, then we can real-world expect 320 miles. *Quick addendum: I'm not a big fan of these types of articles and can more then accept that the testing the article performed was "flawed" as well. But we do need better, consistent range tests.

by zpeti 6y ago

short_sells_poo 6y ago

Because ideally consumers should be allowed to make informed decisions, which is not possible if one party - willingly or not - misrepresents the numbers. Tesla should be criticized for every number they inflate. Every time they pull some marketing crap, they should be called out on it. If it's such a benefit as you write, why do they feel the need inflate the numbers? What happened to honesty among engineers? Understated performance, instead of throwing around huge numbers that are technically possible but are nothing short of misleading for the consumers? I suppose it clearly works for Tesla, but my support goes to the company who claims a conservative number that I'm actually likely to exceed in reality.

zpeti 6y ago
Is there evidence that they are misleading or cheating? The EPA numbers (I assume) are arrived at with the same methodology for all cars. It's indepedent right? (I have no idea). So how is Tesla at fault here, if their cars do well. Btw, you can get the EPA range if you drive around 55-60mph... So it is misleading?
- mywittyname 6y ago
  It is not independent. The EPA defines the test methodology and the manufacture conducts the test themselves. There are some loopholes that manufactures can leverage to improve their score, like offering a model without A/C, tiny tires, or tall gearrs; having a "eco" mode; or having a shift light on the dashboard. The EPA test methodology is actually pretty sound. It includes things like multiple wide-open throttle accelerations to highways speeds. The problems appear to be lack of independent testing and the existence of loopholes mentioned above. Companies like Honda seem to always beat EPA #s and Ford always seems to fall very short of the numbers.
  - Kirby64 6y ago
    All those things you list as 'loopholes' aren't something Tesla is doing here, besides maybe the smaller tires (which really, aren't undersized, they're just the smallest ones they offer happen to get best range). I'm not sure what you'd expect, given that every single defined test can be gamed. 'Real world' is different for everyone. And if you drive 80mph, every single car ever will underperform compared to the stated EPA range/mpg.

MDWolinski 6y ago

For me, the EPA range numbers are important because I'm in the market to buy a new car later this year and I'd like a fair gauge to compare vehicles on expected milage (part of the reason is wife has mileage anxiety, which I believe a lot of non-EV people have as well). Looking at the first article the lead commenter posted that compared "real-world" to EPA ranges, Tesla misses the EPA range by an average of 22%. Other vehicles that miss the EPA range average 4.5% off. Of course the EPA range is as much an estimate as the testing is and conditions change between testing and real world scenarios, but what's so different with the Tesla vehicles during EPA testing compared to real-world testing to cause such a large drop-off compared to other vehicles. We can rightly question the EPA testing methodology in the first place meaning, what are they running (or not running) that regular people would. For example, does EPA not run the A/C during the test? I'm not accusing the Tesla A/C from excessive battery draw, as it's just an example. Yes, having a larger battery is welcome, so with an EPA range of 400 miles, then we can real-world expect 320 miles. *Quick addendum: I'm not a big fan of these types of articles and can more then accept that the testing the article performed was "flawed" as well. But we do need better, consistent range tests.