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The problem is that the same medium (HTML) is used for "documents" and "applications". Programmatic access to clipboard, zoom etc is legitimate for "HTML applic

The problem is that the same medium (HTML) is used for "documents" and "applications". Programmatic access to clipboard, zoom etc is legitimate for "HTML applications" like Google Docs/Maps but unnecessary for "HTML documents", along with virtually all scripting.

pavel_lishin 6y ago
In a more perfect world, browsers would require websites to ask permission before allowing access to the copy/paste buffer.
- sam_goody 6y ago
  Except that the ability to copy is extremely useful. And creating more popup-approval fatigue doesn't help anyone. You are a super-user, so it might be the git clone URL of a really long commit. That "click to copy" button on github is really useful. The same scenario exists from Grandma, and she will click the popup or give up in frustration - neither of which is good. IMO, sites should be able to have access to the copy buffer but not to the paste. Paste should be available to the user with ctrl+P. Definitely not perfect, but more mitigable.
  - pavel_lishin 6y ago
    I don't think the putative Grandma has much need for copy-and-paste functionality from websites. And yes, there would be fatigue, and me-the-super-user would globally block those popups from coming up. It's honestly not worth it. I would miss it maybe once a month, which is about how often I get annoyed by something messing with it. Maybe a middle ground would be allowing websites to _insert_ things into the buffer, but not _modifying_ the buffer. (Though of course, they could just inspect what's highlighted on the page, and then flat out insert that plus their garbage, except I'd argue that I don't think they need to know what I've got highlighted, then you'd point out that that would break Google Docs, and I'd suggest another popup, and you'd say that Grandma can't handle the fatigue, etc., etc.)
pjc50 6y ago
I'd quite like to see a three-way partition between "dumb document" (DOM frozen after load, possibly no processing at all), "smart document" (DOM APIs only, possibly plus classical HTML form submission), and "actual application". Ideally with a way of telling which is which before loading it. I don't realistically expect this to happen. The stupid thing about AMP is that it's trying to push sites back into the "document" box, but only so that they can be monetized more effectively by Google...
- divbzero 6y ago
  It would be great if this could be enforced with browser permissions. Allow Gmail to run as an application in your browser? [Deny] [Allow] [Always Allow]

pavel_lishin 6y ago

In a more perfect world, browsers would require websites to ask permission before allowing access to the copy/paste buffer.

sam_goody 6y ago
Except that the ability to copy is extremely useful. And creating more popup-approval fatigue doesn't help anyone. You are a super-user, so it might be the git clone URL of a really long commit. That "click to copy" button on github is really useful. The same scenario exists from Grandma, and she will click the popup or give up in frustration - neither of which is good. IMO, sites should be able to have access to the copy buffer but not to the paste. Paste should be available to the user with ctrl+P. Definitely not perfect, but more mitigable.
- pavel_lishin 6y ago
  I don't think the putative Grandma has much need for copy-and-paste functionality from websites. And yes, there would be fatigue, and me-the-super-user would globally block those popups from coming up. It's honestly not worth it. I would miss it maybe once a month, which is about how often I get annoyed by something messing with it. Maybe a middle ground would be allowing websites to _insert_ things into the buffer, but not _modifying_ the buffer. (Though of course, they could just inspect what's highlighted on the page, and then flat out insert that plus their garbage, except I'd argue that I don't think they need to know what I've got highlighted, then you'd point out that that would break Google Docs, and I'd suggest another popup, and you'd say that Grandma can't handle the fatigue, etc., etc.)

pjc50 6y ago

I'd quite like to see a three-way partition between "dumb document" (DOM frozen after load, possibly no processing at all), "smart document" (DOM APIs only, possibly plus classical HTML form submission), and "actual application". Ideally with a way of telling which is which before loading it. I don't realistically expect this to happen. The stupid thing about AMP is that it's trying to push sites back into the "document" box, but only so that they can be monetized more effectively by Google...

divbzero 6y ago
It would be great if this could be enforced with browser permissions. Allow Gmail to run as an application in your browser? [Deny] [Allow] [Always Allow]