7 ms·

Sadly, this story continues to have a modern day version in the form of poor government support for domestic firms. Canadian education and talent is incredible

Sadly, this story continues to have a modern day version in the form of poor government support for domestic firms. Canadian education and talent is incredible and arguably world class but with greater opportunity in the south, many choose to leave. Perhaps some may have come back with the US politics but I doubt there's a mass migration back to Canada. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ibm-shared-services-contract-1.4658682 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ibm-shared-services-contrac...

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
You can say the same about Europe generally having a great and free education system but the best and brightest move to the US.
- gambiting 6y ago
  I honestly don't understand or know anyone who would move to the US now. I have a few friends who were considering it but it's a very firm no at this point, and they all had offers from the big firms in Silicone Valley. Sure, your compensation in UK or Germany won't reach the stratospheric levels of US programmers, but as a competent engineer you can easily reach very comfortable levels of living, buy a house, brand new car, afford to have a couple kids and save some money for fun. And you won't have to deal with the insanity of American healthcare, immigration or politics. I grew up thinking that my dream would be to move to US one day - nowadays there probably isn't an offer that would make me move there.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    >[...]Germany[...]buy a house Unless you get financial support from your (grand)parents, you can forget about that as houses in the nice areas are closing in on the million euro ballpark and IC salaries there are a joke for such a purchase.
    - gambiting 6y ago
      I don't know why people immediately assume that when I say "buy a house" I mean "buy a house in the middle of London/Berlin/Paris". Can your average SF programmer afford to buy a house in the middle of SF? I know people working for instance in Stuttgart - buying a house in the smaller towns nearby is not an issue at all according to them. I personally live in the UK and sure, London prices are insane - but we don't live in London. Me and my wife bought a house after saving just for a few months[0], the prices are very achievable for an average programmer. [0]mortgaged, obviously. But since the prices are lower it was "easy" to save for a deposit and get a mortgage. We're literally paying £600/month on a mortgage for a 3-bed house with a large garden and double driveway. That's an almost insignificant part of my salary.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        No disrespect, but houses in Germany are a lot more expensive than in the UK. If you own a 3 bedroom house and two driveways in Germany you're basically a millionaire. And by "nice house" I didn't mean a house in the center of a major city but a house in the suburbs in a quiet, green area with good schools.
        gambiting 6y ago
        Right, that's fair enough - I'm just saying what I know from my family and friends who live around Stuttgart, in both CS industries and out of them. They own houses without being millionaires, maybe it's something about Stuttgart specifically.
        sgift 6y ago
        Average prices for a house in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern: Between 250k and 500k, depending on housing type. Position is king, even here in Germany.
      - refurb 6y ago
        Can your average SF programmer afford to buy a house in the middle of SF? If you define average as a FAANG programmer, then yes, the average one could buy a house in SF.
  - govg 6y ago
    Isn't housing in the major EU cities (London / Paris / Berlin ) all very expensive and comparable to SF / NY in terms of multiples of average programmer salary? The healthcare is definitely a big advantage though.
    - sk0g 6y ago
      Berlin is a lot cheaper than any of Australian cities, from what I saw. There are a lot more expensive cities in Europe though, like even Münich if you want a German example.
    - gambiting 6y ago
      Hahaha, I literally just addressed exactly this point in my other comment - sure, London is insanely expensive, as is SF. There is more to any of these countries outside of the capitals, just like there is more to US outside of SF.
    - umanwizard 6y ago
      Why is European healthcare an advantage for people in professional software engineering jobs? All such people have health insurance in the US.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        Because it's not all about you. It's about your parents, your friends, your family who are not :gasp: software engineers, and it's nice not having to worry about them going bankrupt or homeless if they need x life-saving medical procedure or they loose their job.
        perl4ever 6y ago
        It can be impractical to take your parents, your friends, and your extended family along with you to another country. It's certainly far more difficult than getting a job there as a software engineer, particular because of countries preferring to allow highly skilled, educated, and/or paid people in preferentially.
      - 6y ago
  - Supernaut 6y ago
    > nowadays there probably isn't an offer that would make me move there. I concur. For a start, here in Europe, I don't have to worry each day that someone is going to run amok in my children's school with semi-automatic weapons. You can't place a value on that.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      That is an exaggerated fear to have, school shootings are not the norm there. That would be like saying you're afraid of the Islamic terrorism amok on the streets of Europe.
      - Supernaut 6y ago
        You're right, they're not the norm. But is it not correct to say that mass shootings very much are?
      - mschuster91 6y ago
        > That is an exaggerated fear to have, school shootings are not the norm there. Nearly once a week in 2019 (https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/15/us/2019-us-school-shootings-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/15/us/2019-us-school-shootin...). March 2020 was the first March since 2002 to pass without a single school shooting thanks to the 'rona lockdowns (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-first-march-without-school-shooting-since-2002-united-states/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-first-march-without...). > That would be like saying you're afraid of the Islamic terrorism amok on the streets of Europe. Whole Europe has had 1 incident in 2019, 7 in 2018 and 10 in 2017/2016. Even with record 17 incidents in 2015, five years of Islamist terror together don't even come close to one average year of school shootings in the US, and are a blip compared to one year of mass shootings in the US.
        refurb 6y ago
        Please don't use CNN as a source. They are intentionally inflating the number. We included accidental discharge of a firearm... We included injuries sustained from BB guns... Neither of those would scenarios would fall under what most people view as a "school shooting".
  - stilley2 6y ago
    My wife is Canadian and I'm American, and we've spent time in both countries. She summed it up very well: the US is a great place to live if you make above a certain amount of money. I.e., it's better for the upper classes at the expense of the lower classes.
  - cosmodisk 6y ago
    My image of the US has changed substantially over the last few years. I never saw it as a issues free country but nowadays it just looks worse than ever.From aside it looks like a family where it's members reached middle age crisis,told all their neighbours to sod off, kicked children in the teeth and trying to tear each other apart.
    - vikramkr 6y ago
      The US hasn't changed. These issues were always here. We're forced to confront them in a very direct way now, which rips off any facades built up about being "issues free." This is the "pain" part of "no pain no gain." Hopefully, as a country we're able to grow and become better the same way we did in the 60s, the last time it seems we had an equivalent/stronger "bandaid ripping off" moment. From personal experience, I vastly prefer a country like the US where these issues are being dragged front and center and exposed than other parts of the world where these same ugly facets of humanity exist, but people pretend they don't.
  - gabbo 6y ago
    This may be true in parts of Europe, but it's not so clear cut in Canada. We have a decent tech job market in our 3 major cities (Montreal/Vancouver/Toronto), but it's mostly bad elsewhere. There are a few lower-tier Canadian cities which are OK (Waterloo, Ottawa), but as cities they're grossly limited compared to where you can live in Europe. Of the 3 major Canadian cities, only Montreal could be considered affordable to software engineer. Vancouver/Toronto are extremely expensive vs. local pay. Unless you want to sign yourself up for a punishing daily commute or bought your house a long time ago, it's hard to describe the standard of living as "very comfortable" other than compared to lower earners in the local market. Tellingly, when you look at the data more than 100% of Toronto's population growth comes from international migration. Which makes sense, it's a very welcoming place. But without immigration, the city would have shrunk by 50k people last year (~1.5% of population).
- tixocloud 6y ago
  As a Canadian looking at how the UK government is willing to work with smaller, domestic firms for government services and how much is being spent to help with the startup ecosystem, it's no wonder Canada doesn't really have the same ecosystem. For Canadian businesses to be successful, they generally have to look elsewhere. Speaking to a Canadian AI startup, their business comes from Europe.
  - rjsw 6y ago
    > looking at how the UK government is willing to work with smaller, domestic firms owned by friends of members of the government for government services FIFY.
- gabbo 6y ago
  Not exactly. There are fewer linguistic, cultural, and immigration barriers when comparing Canada/US vs. Europe/US.
andromeduck 6y ago
Yup, this is especially bad in BC where at least half the CS/ECE grad moved to Seattle or SF the year they graduated. All the best talent leave unless tied down by family. It seems there just wasn't enough graft or cheap political points to be had nurturing anything complex. The payoffs if any aren't quick enough. It's much easier to go after logging, mining, casinos (money laundering for Chinese donors), film or some quick jobs program to appease unions and claim impact for the next election.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
908B64B197 6y ago
My understanding is that the current administration has made it easier for Canadians to come to the US since they started to be more strict on what's accepted for H1B. But I could be mistaken.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

You can say the same about Europe generally having a great and free education system but the best and brightest move to the US.

gambiting 6y ago
I honestly don't understand or know anyone who would move to the US now. I have a few friends who were considering it but it's a very firm no at this point, and they all had offers from the big firms in Silicone Valley. Sure, your compensation in UK or Germany won't reach the stratospheric levels of US programmers, but as a competent engineer you can easily reach very comfortable levels of living, buy a house, brand new car, afford to have a couple kids and save some money for fun. And you won't have to deal with the insanity of American healthcare, immigration or politics. I grew up thinking that my dream would be to move to US one day - nowadays there probably isn't an offer that would make me move there.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >[...]Germany[...]buy a house Unless you get financial support from your (grand)parents, you can forget about that as houses in the nice areas are closing in on the million euro ballpark and IC salaries there are a joke for such a purchase.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    I don't know why people immediately assume that when I say "buy a house" I mean "buy a house in the middle of London/Berlin/Paris". Can your average SF programmer afford to buy a house in the middle of SF? I know people working for instance in Stuttgart - buying a house in the smaller towns nearby is not an issue at all according to them. I personally live in the UK and sure, London prices are insane - but we don't live in London. Me and my wife bought a house after saving just for a few months[0], the prices are very achievable for an average programmer. [0]mortgaged, obviously. But since the prices are lower it was "easy" to save for a deposit and get a mortgage. We're literally paying £600/month on a mortgage for a 3-bed house with a large garden and double driveway. That's an almost insignificant part of my salary.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      No disrespect, but houses in Germany are a lot more expensive than in the UK. If you own a 3 bedroom house and two driveways in Germany you're basically a millionaire. And by "nice house" I didn't mean a house in the center of a major city but a house in the suburbs in a quiet, green area with good schools.
      - gambiting 6y ago
        Right, that's fair enough - I'm just saying what I know from my family and friends who live around Stuttgart, in both CS industries and out of them. They own houses without being millionaires, maybe it's something about Stuttgart specifically.
      - sgift 6y ago
        Average prices for a house in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern: Between 250k and 500k, depending on housing type. Position is king, even here in Germany.
    - refurb 6y ago
      Can your average SF programmer afford to buy a house in the middle of SF? If you define average as a FAANG programmer, then yes, the average one could buy a house in SF.
- govg 6y ago
  Isn't housing in the major EU cities (London / Paris / Berlin ) all very expensive and comparable to SF / NY in terms of multiples of average programmer salary? The healthcare is definitely a big advantage though.
  - sk0g 6y ago
    Berlin is a lot cheaper than any of Australian cities, from what I saw. There are a lot more expensive cities in Europe though, like even Münich if you want a German example.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    Hahaha, I literally just addressed exactly this point in my other comment - sure, London is insanely expensive, as is SF. There is more to any of these countries outside of the capitals, just like there is more to US outside of SF.
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    Why is European healthcare an advantage for people in professional software engineering jobs? All such people have health insurance in the US.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      Because it's not all about you. It's about your parents, your friends, your family who are not :gasp: software engineers, and it's nice not having to worry about them going bankrupt or homeless if they need x life-saving medical procedure or they loose their job.
      - perl4ever 6y ago
        It can be impractical to take your parents, your friends, and your extended family along with you to another country. It's certainly far more difficult than getting a job there as a software engineer, particular because of countries preferring to allow highly skilled, educated, and/or paid people in preferentially.
    - 6y ago
- Supernaut 6y ago
  > nowadays there probably isn't an offer that would make me move there. I concur. For a start, here in Europe, I don't have to worry each day that someone is going to run amok in my children's school with semi-automatic weapons. You can't place a value on that.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    That is an exaggerated fear to have, school shootings are not the norm there. That would be like saying you're afraid of the Islamic terrorism amok on the streets of Europe.
    - Supernaut 6y ago
      You're right, they're not the norm. But is it not correct to say that mass shootings very much are?
    - mschuster91 6y ago
      > That is an exaggerated fear to have, school shootings are not the norm there. Nearly once a week in 2019 (https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/15/us/2019-us-school-shootings-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/15/us/2019-us-school-shootin...). March 2020 was the first March since 2002 to pass without a single school shooting thanks to the 'rona lockdowns (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-first-march-without-school-shooting-since-2002-united-states/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-first-march-without...). > That would be like saying you're afraid of the Islamic terrorism amok on the streets of Europe. Whole Europe has had 1 incident in 2019, 7 in 2018 and 10 in 2017/2016. Even with record 17 incidents in 2015, five years of Islamist terror together don't even come close to one average year of school shootings in the US, and are a blip compared to one year of mass shootings in the US.
      - refurb 6y ago
        Please don't use CNN as a source. They are intentionally inflating the number. We included accidental discharge of a firearm... We included injuries sustained from BB guns... Neither of those would scenarios would fall under what most people view as a "school shooting".
- stilley2 6y ago
  My wife is Canadian and I'm American, and we've spent time in both countries. She summed it up very well: the US is a great place to live if you make above a certain amount of money. I.e., it's better for the upper classes at the expense of the lower classes.
- cosmodisk 6y ago
  My image of the US has changed substantially over the last few years. I never saw it as a issues free country but nowadays it just looks worse than ever.From aside it looks like a family where it's members reached middle age crisis,told all their neighbours to sod off, kicked children in the teeth and trying to tear each other apart.
  - vikramkr 6y ago
    The US hasn't changed. These issues were always here. We're forced to confront them in a very direct way now, which rips off any facades built up about being "issues free." This is the "pain" part of "no pain no gain." Hopefully, as a country we're able to grow and become better the same way we did in the 60s, the last time it seems we had an equivalent/stronger "bandaid ripping off" moment. From personal experience, I vastly prefer a country like the US where these issues are being dragged front and center and exposed than other parts of the world where these same ugly facets of humanity exist, but people pretend they don't.
- gabbo 6y ago
  This may be true in parts of Europe, but it's not so clear cut in Canada. We have a decent tech job market in our 3 major cities (Montreal/Vancouver/Toronto), but it's mostly bad elsewhere. There are a few lower-tier Canadian cities which are OK (Waterloo, Ottawa), but as cities they're grossly limited compared to where you can live in Europe. Of the 3 major Canadian cities, only Montreal could be considered affordable to software engineer. Vancouver/Toronto are extremely expensive vs. local pay. Unless you want to sign yourself up for a punishing daily commute or bought your house a long time ago, it's hard to describe the standard of living as "very comfortable" other than compared to lower earners in the local market. Tellingly, when you look at the data more than 100% of Toronto's population growth comes from international migration. Which makes sense, it's a very welcoming place. But without immigration, the city would have shrunk by 50k people last year (~1.5% of population).
tixocloud 6y ago
As a Canadian looking at how the UK government is willing to work with smaller, domestic firms for government services and how much is being spent to help with the startup ecosystem, it's no wonder Canada doesn't really have the same ecosystem. For Canadian businesses to be successful, they generally have to look elsewhere. Speaking to a Canadian AI startup, their business comes from Europe.
- rjsw 6y ago
  > looking at how the UK government is willing to work with smaller, domestic firms owned by friends of members of the government for government services FIFY.
gabbo 6y ago
Not exactly. There are fewer linguistic, cultural, and immigration barriers when comparing Canada/US vs. Europe/US.

andromeduck 6y ago

Yup, this is especially bad in BC where at least half the CS/ECE grad moved to Seattle or SF the year they graduated. All the best talent leave unless tied down by family. It seems there just wasn't enough graft or cheap political points to be had nurturing anything complex. The payoffs if any aren't quick enough. It's much easier to go after logging, mining, casinos (money laundering for Chinese donors), film or some quick jobs program to appease unions and claim impact for the next election.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

908B64B197 6y ago

My understanding is that the current administration has made it easier for Canadians to come to the US since they started to be more strict on what's accepted for H1B. But I could be mistaken.