4 ms·

I'll share a disturbing anecdote about one of the largest and most influential software companies in the world, based in the Bay Area, and I'll leave it to you

I'll share a disturbing anecdote about one of the largest and most influential software companies in the world, based in the Bay Area, and I'll leave it to you to guess which one. I know of several people who work there who are ranked very highly and are paid extremely well, who have told me personally that the work they do there is terrible for the users (i.e. it's exploitative) and terrible for the internet (it interferes with open standards and access). But it also creates profits for the company. The individuals feel that it just pays too well, and for that reason, they could never voice their true feelings inside the company, and neither could their colleagues. It would mean giving up humungous paychecks. Inside the company, it's like the Emperor's New Clothes. Everyone pretends that they are making the world a better place, when they know without a doubt that in fact, they are making the world a worse place. They are not bad people. This company is filled with people who are making that silent tradeoff every single day.

ManuelKiessling 6y ago
Now I really wish I had a button to share this on... Facebook.
samvher 6y ago
> They are not bad people. Very few people are "bad" people but the way you're describing it makes it pretty clear that they're making unethical choices, and they're doing so consciously. Actions speak louder than words.
- abbadadda 6y ago
  The sad thing is, what are they going to do? Change it? Leave? Let's pretend each of these individuals are making $2M a year. They'll just be replaced with someone else that'll take the humongous paychecks. They could take a moral stand and leave, and I think continuing to work in that environment would be hard, but I don't fault the individual to the point I'd consider them a "bad person." Their complicity in these activities is not bad enough to warrant being angry at them, but I do feel a bit sorry for them. It is a hard choice they wouldn't have to make if there was a bit more oversight of these internet behemoths.
  - rglover 6y ago
    If they're making that kind of money, they can not only afford to leave, but have plenty of time to figure out what to do afterwards. Unless, of course, their current lifestyle is beyond their means (one would hope not in that situation).
  - Balgair 6y ago
    I don't know here. The choices aren't like those in a DoD company (we assume from the poster this is a FAANG company). You aren't actually building weapons platforms. It's a bit more like slot machine engineers here; people's lives are 'worse', but not 'over'. As such, I think it's very personal. If they are OK with building digital casino-like places, so be it. If they are not, then they should make a plan to leave. If they feel that the money is the only thing keeping them there, they have to look into their own mirrors.
- runeks 6y ago
  What’s the difference between a bad person and a person who consciously makes unethical choices?
  - Inthenameofmine 6y ago
    Is that a rhetorical question? Because a person who makes conscious unethical choices is a bad person. Otherwise there would be no metric for "badness" and the word would be meaningless.
  - perfmode 6y ago
    difference... bad... unethical... all of these are concepts in the mind. in truth, it is all simple ignorance and a case of mistaken identity. there is no bad... good... no ethics... no this or that. this is how the world will be until we all wake up. until then, we rest in compassion.
  - xinsight 6y ago
    This was the one of the wonderful bit of insights from the suprisingly deep and insightful show "Bojack Horseman". Basically, there is is no such thing as "deep down inside i'm a good person". You are your actions.
joelthelion 6y ago
At that level, I don't think we can expect individuals to make "the right decision" and take actions that hurt them personally. This is where government regulation is needed.
- NickM 6y ago
  Yes, 100% agree. Unless we change the system to stop these abuses, then the good people who "do the right thing" and quit will simply be replaced by other new employees who don't give a shit. The end result is that bad people are rewarded with huge paychecks while good people are punished with fewer opportunities and/or lower paying jobs.
thedream 6y ago
> Everyone pretends that they are making the world a better place, when they know without a doubt that in fact, they are making the world a worse place. They are not bad people. "Doublethink is a process of indoctrination whereby the subject is expected to accept as true that which is clearly false, or to simultaneously accept two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in contravention to one's own memories or sense of reality." [1] What do you call it when one doublethinker absolves a different doublethinker for doublethinking? Doubleplus-doublethink? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink
YPCrumble 6y ago
Pay a good person enough money and they become a bad person very quickly.
savrajsingh 6y ago
https://youtu.be/-DiBc1vkTig https://youtu.be/-DiBc1vkTig exact story covered by the onion
- J-dawg 6y ago
  I often wonder how someone like Dan Abramov manages to square his obviously strong social conscience with working for Facebook.
J-dawg 6y ago
I think the hypocrisy of this stands out in tech more than other industries, because people have got used to the idea of tech "making the world a better place" and being a force for good. There are bright people making lots of money in other industries who would struggle to even pretend they are making the world a better place. In fact, how many jobs are there where you can get reasonably high pay and status, and still feel like you are actually improving the world? Medicine springs to mind, the sustainable energy industry...some parts of the software industry...anything else? Sadly it seems most of us need to sell at least a little bit of our soul to pay the rent.
- elicash 6y ago
  All industries do this. Finance, oil, corporate attorneys, lobbyists -- I can't think of a single profession that doesn't build a myth around their value to the world.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

ManuelKiessling 6y ago

Now I really wish I had a button to share this on... Facebook.

samvher 6y ago

> They are not bad people. Very few people are "bad" people but the way you're describing it makes it pretty clear that they're making unethical choices, and they're doing so consciously. Actions speak louder than words.

abbadadda 6y ago
The sad thing is, what are they going to do? Change it? Leave? Let's pretend each of these individuals are making $2M a year. They'll just be replaced with someone else that'll take the humongous paychecks. They could take a moral stand and leave, and I think continuing to work in that environment would be hard, but I don't fault the individual to the point I'd consider them a "bad person." Their complicity in these activities is not bad enough to warrant being angry at them, but I do feel a bit sorry for them. It is a hard choice they wouldn't have to make if there was a bit more oversight of these internet behemoths.
- rglover 6y ago
  If they're making that kind of money, they can not only afford to leave, but have plenty of time to figure out what to do afterwards. Unless, of course, their current lifestyle is beyond their means (one would hope not in that situation).
- Balgair 6y ago
  I don't know here. The choices aren't like those in a DoD company (we assume from the poster this is a FAANG company). You aren't actually building weapons platforms. It's a bit more like slot machine engineers here; people's lives are 'worse', but not 'over'. As such, I think it's very personal. If they are OK with building digital casino-like places, so be it. If they are not, then they should make a plan to leave. If they feel that the money is the only thing keeping them there, they have to look into their own mirrors.
runeks 6y ago
What’s the difference between a bad person and a person who consciously makes unethical choices?
- Inthenameofmine 6y ago
  Is that a rhetorical question? Because a person who makes conscious unethical choices is a bad person. Otherwise there would be no metric for "badness" and the word would be meaningless.
- perfmode 6y ago
  difference... bad... unethical... all of these are concepts in the mind. in truth, it is all simple ignorance and a case of mistaken identity. there is no bad... good... no ethics... no this or that. this is how the world will be until we all wake up. until then, we rest in compassion.
- xinsight 6y ago
  This was the one of the wonderful bit of insights from the suprisingly deep and insightful show "Bojack Horseman". Basically, there is is no such thing as "deep down inside i'm a good person". You are your actions.

joelthelion 6y ago

At that level, I don't think we can expect individuals to make "the right decision" and take actions that hurt them personally. This is where government regulation is needed.

NickM 6y ago
Yes, 100% agree. Unless we change the system to stop these abuses, then the good people who "do the right thing" and quit will simply be replaced by other new employees who don't give a shit. The end result is that bad people are rewarded with huge paychecks while good people are punished with fewer opportunities and/or lower paying jobs.

thedream 6y ago

> Everyone pretends that they are making the world a better place, when they know without a doubt that in fact, they are making the world a worse place. They are not bad people. "Doublethink is a process of indoctrination whereby the subject is expected to accept as true that which is clearly false, or to simultaneously accept two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in contravention to one's own memories or sense of reality." [1] What do you call it when one doublethinker absolves a different doublethinker for doublethinking? Doubleplus-doublethink? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

YPCrumble 6y ago

Pay a good person enough money and they become a bad person very quickly.

savrajsingh 6y ago

https://youtu.be/-DiBc1vkTig https://youtu.be/-DiBc1vkTig exact story covered by the onion

J-dawg 6y ago
I often wonder how someone like Dan Abramov manages to square his obviously strong social conscience with working for Facebook.

J-dawg 6y ago

I think the hypocrisy of this stands out in tech more than other industries, because people have got used to the idea of tech "making the world a better place" and being a force for good. There are bright people making lots of money in other industries who would struggle to even pretend they are making the world a better place. In fact, how many jobs are there where you can get reasonably high pay and status, and still feel like you are actually improving the world? Medicine springs to mind, the sustainable energy industry...some parts of the software industry...anything else? Sadly it seems most of us need to sell at least a little bit of our soul to pay the rent.

elicash 6y ago
All industries do this. Finance, oil, corporate attorneys, lobbyists -- I can't think of a single profession that doesn't build a myth around their value to the world.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]