5 ms·

A plan to turn the atmosphere into an enormous sensor

30 points by noir-york 6y ago

nchase 6y ago
From the article: The first 27 months of the programme will be dedicated to understanding the science behind ripples in both the ionosphere and the electrically neutral atmosphere below it, and then building computer simulations of what is going on. These will be tested to see if they can replicate accurately effects seen in the past. Once the team have a better understanding of the basic science, they will proceed to the second stage: field trials. This will involve three tests at three-month intervals in which researchers attempt to locate pertinent events, such as storm cells, mining operations and earthquakes. If that works, the project will then move on to matters of military interest by spying on missile launches, tracking aircraft and even watching underground bunkers being dug. The result, if all goes well, may be the world’s first true panopticon. Hopefully they spend more time on the atmospheric stuff than the military stuff. Exciting news, if the former.
- SllX 6y ago
  Any sufficiently advanced technology will be purposed for military use. This will be purposed for Intelligence and Reconnaissance use if it fills a niche they need filled.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    something something Unrestricted Warfare
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Having worked in remote sensing[1] in the distant past, every now and then I still glance at the Wassenaar Agreement[2] to find out what today's fun stuff may be. [1] interplanetary on my part, but I have no illusions that our funders didn't have further intraplanetary applications in mind. I was young and needed the money. [2] https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2019/12/WA-DOC-19-PUB-002-Public-Docs-Vol-II-2019-List-of-DU-Goods-and-Technologies-and-Munitions-List-Dec-19.pdf https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2019/12/WA-DOC-19-PUB-... (as far as watching bunkers being dug, I'm pretty sure LIDAR already gives a much cleaner signal)
    - SllX 6y ago
      Hey, that’s perfectly reasonable. No, the problem we have as a society is we live in this kind of reality which is governed by this thing called physics, and as our understanding of physics progresses, our ability to abuse the shit out of it also progresses. Some things aren’t a matter of if, but when. That PDF is a gold mine by the way. > as far as watching bunkers being dug, I'm pretty sure LIDAR already gives a much cleaner signal The proposed applications are probably nothing more than something to get the ball rolling but can already be done very effectively today. I hesitate to be overly skeptical because an atmospheric panopticon would probably have more applications than they would imagine or dare to propose themselves.
ur-whale 6y ago
http://archive.is/IJD98 http://archive.is/IJD98
nuccy 6y ago
The atmosphere is also used as a detection medium for Imaging Atmospheric Cherenkov Telescopes (IACTs) [1]. Very high energy (>tens GeV) photons, electrons or nuclons hit atoms in the atmosphere and produce a cascade of secondary particles, which move faster than the speed of light in the air emitting Cherenkov light [2]. Flashes of this light are lasting for few nanoseconds, so the cameras have nanosecond sampling time and are based on photo multipliers. There are many such telescopes around the world: MAGIC (2 telescopes), FACT (1), HESS (5), Veritas (4). The biggest assembly of such telescopes is currently under construction - Cherenkov Telescole Array [3] with hundred of telescopes in Paranal, Chile and 20 in La Palma, Canary Islands. One large telescope with a mirror of 23m diameter is already operating [4]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IACT https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IACT [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_shower_(physics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_shower_(physics) [3] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5gRHFQP_SjU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5gRHFQP_SjU [4] https://www.cta-observatory.org/lst-1_inauguration/ https://www.cta-observatory.org/lst-1_inauguration/
- javawizard 6y ago
  This is fascinating, but: > which move faster than the speed of light Citation needed. I was of the understanding that this is impossible, and your first two links provide no evidence to the contrary.
  - sdflhasjd 6y ago
    Crucial detail: > which move faster than the speed of light in the air The speed of light in air is slightly less than the speed of light in a vacuum (c) Nothing is going faster than c
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    > which move faster than the speed of light in the air emitting Cherenkov light Key words "in the air". As they can't go faster than C in this medium[0], they are forced to slow down, and emit this lost kinetic energy as radiation - my understanding. Something a bit better, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation Cherenkov radiation is electromagnetic radiation emitted when a charged particle passes through a dielectric medium at a speed greater than the phase velocity of light in that medium. A classic example of Cherenkov radiation is the characteristic blue glow of an underwater nuclear reactor. [0] I realise this seems contradictory - they can't but for a short time they are - I don't understand that either.

30 points by noir-york 6y ago

From the article: The first 27 months of the programme will be dedicated to understanding the science behind ripples in both the ionosphere and the electrically neutral atmosphere below it, and then building computer simulations of what is going on. These will be tested to see if they can replicate accurately effects seen in the past. Once the team have a better understanding of the basic science, they will proceed to the second stage: field trials. This will involve three tests at three-month intervals in which researchers attempt to locate pertinent events, such as storm cells, mining operations and earthquakes. If that works, the project will then move on to matters of military interest by spying on missile launches, tracking aircraft and even watching underground bunkers being dug. The result, if all goes well, may be the world’s first true panopticon. Hopefully they spend more time on the atmospheric stuff than the military stuff. Exciting news, if the former.

SllX 6y ago
Any sufficiently advanced technology will be purposed for military use. This will be purposed for Intelligence and Reconnaissance use if it fills a niche they need filled.
- numpad0 6y ago
  something something Unrestricted Warfare
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Having worked in remote sensing[1] in the distant past, every now and then I still glance at the Wassenaar Agreement[2] to find out what today's fun stuff may be. [1] interplanetary on my part, but I have no illusions that our funders didn't have further intraplanetary applications in mind. I was young and needed the money. [2] https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2019/12/WA-DOC-19-PUB-002-Public-Docs-Vol-II-2019-List-of-DU-Goods-and-Technologies-and-Munitions-List-Dec-19.pdf https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2019/12/WA-DOC-19-PUB-... (as far as watching bunkers being dug, I'm pretty sure LIDAR already gives a much cleaner signal)
  - SllX 6y ago
    Hey, that’s perfectly reasonable. No, the problem we have as a society is we live in this kind of reality which is governed by this thing called physics, and as our understanding of physics progresses, our ability to abuse the shit out of it also progresses. Some things aren’t a matter of if, but when. That PDF is a gold mine by the way. > as far as watching bunkers being dug, I'm pretty sure LIDAR already gives a much cleaner signal The proposed applications are probably nothing more than something to get the ball rolling but can already be done very effectively today. I hesitate to be overly skeptical because an atmospheric panopticon would probably have more applications than they would imagine or dare to propose themselves.

ur-whale 6y ago

http://archive.is/IJD98 http://archive.is/IJD98

nuccy 6y ago

The atmosphere is also used as a detection medium for Imaging Atmospheric Cherenkov Telescopes (IACTs) [1]. Very high energy (>tens GeV) photons, electrons or nuclons hit atoms in the atmosphere and produce a cascade of secondary particles, which move faster than the speed of light in the air emitting Cherenkov light [2]. Flashes of this light are lasting for few nanoseconds, so the cameras have nanosecond sampling time and are based on photo multipliers. There are many such telescopes around the world: MAGIC (2 telescopes), FACT (1), HESS (5), Veritas (4). The biggest assembly of such telescopes is currently under construction - Cherenkov Telescole Array [3] with hundred of telescopes in Paranal, Chile and 20 in La Palma, Canary Islands. One large telescope with a mirror of 23m diameter is already operating [4]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IACT https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IACT [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_shower_(physics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_shower_(physics) [3] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5gRHFQP_SjU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5gRHFQP_SjU [4] https://www.cta-observatory.org/lst-1_inauguration/ https://www.cta-observatory.org/lst-1_inauguration/

javawizard 6y ago
This is fascinating, but: > which move faster than the speed of light Citation needed. I was of the understanding that this is impossible, and your first two links provide no evidence to the contrary.
- sdflhasjd 6y ago
  Crucial detail: > which move faster than the speed of light in the air The speed of light in air is slightly less than the speed of light in a vacuum (c) Nothing is going faster than c
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  > which move faster than the speed of light in the air emitting Cherenkov light Key words "in the air". As they can't go faster than C in this medium[0], they are forced to slow down, and emit this lost kinetic energy as radiation - my understanding. Something a bit better, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation Cherenkov radiation is electromagnetic radiation emitted when a charged particle passes through a dielectric medium at a speed greater than the phase velocity of light in that medium. A classic example of Cherenkov radiation is the characteristic blue glow of an underwater nuclear reactor. [0] I realise this seems contradictory - they can't but for a short time they are - I don't understand that either.