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Not a mystery, and discussed previously on HN before. The IRS abandoned this technology because it lost key employees, because it was not legally allowed to pay

Not a mystery, and discussed previously on HN before. The IRS abandoned this technology because it lost key employees, because it was not legally allowed to pay market rates for them. Discussion in 2018: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16377804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16377804 .

sokoloff 6y ago
I suspect this is at least half the problem. Imagine the team of software leaders you’d put together to pull off that project. Imagine the team of software engineers you’d need to implement it. These senior positions are paying mid-high six-figures in industry and the mid-level positions are paying $250K or more. If the IRS is paying under $200K, making you follow government employment rules, work on an antiquated public works project, and giving you a terrible career development experience, it shouldn’t be any surprise the recruiting problem they face. You can’t get the talent you need for this project because the talent you need knows that 500 is bigger than 200.
- rubidium 6y ago
  Just a datapoint: I (And lots of other people) could readily build and maintain a team of software engineers for $109-$134k salary in the Midwest that would be fully competent in achieving anything the irs needed.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    I’m confident that that’s true in the “bulk construction” aspect of the project, which is of course an enormously important component of the task. I’m not at all convinced that that’s true for the architecture and strategic planning aspect of how to tackle the project. (I’m talking about industry salary rate for top leaders and architects here; I’m not suggesting that people with this profile aren’t available in the Midwest; I’m merely stating that they could make wildly more than $134K in industry even in the worst-paid Midwest city.)
  - csharptwdec19 6y ago
    As another datapoint. I don't know what he's making nowadays, but the IRS -does- have developers in the midwest (Michigan). A colleague I went to college with actually wound up getting a job with them after college. At the time the pay wasn't 'great' but the pension looked good. OTOH, this was in 2007, so if nothing else he had stability during those times. Although, it was COBOL... that said, they didn't require any COBOL experience and he spent his first 2-3 months training.
  - acdha 6y ago
    This is one of the strategies which 18F pursues: either remote work or working out of offices around the country is much less of a losing game than trying to match DC/SF salaries directly. It’s not perfect but given that the DC salary cap can’t be lifted without the Vice President and Congress getting raises it’s a lot more in their control.
- magicalhippo 6y ago
  Was just reading about the Norwegian Police which is trying to get a new IT director[1]. The police is in dire need of updating several old and complex IT solutions, and need someone good to help them through this process. Some are very upset that the salary is so high, about 3x what regular police officers are making. One quote was "The Labor Party cannot accept that our police officers earn less than half of what the police directors do". On the one hand I kinda agree as they don't seem to have any significantly larger responsibility in practice (if they screw up they don't pay for their mistakes), and well, the actual job is done by the team. On the other hand... if you're good at what you're doing then there can be lots of interesting places to work, and more money certainly makes life easier. [1]: https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/hinsides/72570672 https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/hinsides/72570672
  - Kalium 6y ago
    A Labor party should understand that the ability to organize and direct the labor of workers is itself exceptionally valuable labor. The value even scales up with the number of workers involved, the locations involved, the number of other working relationships that must be managed, and so on. I understood some things better once I started thinking of management as organization workers.
tomohawk 6y ago
What usually happens in this circumstance is that the team forms a company and the government contracts with them for the work. Or, a large prime contractor reassembles the team upon getting a contract. The fact that this did not occur points to a lack of capability on the part of the IRS to manage contracts. The federal civil service really doesn't offer any sort of career path for technologists.

sokoloff 6y ago

I suspect this is at least half the problem. Imagine the team of software leaders you’d put together to pull off that project. Imagine the team of software engineers you’d need to implement it. These senior positions are paying mid-high six-figures in industry and the mid-level positions are paying $250K or more. If the IRS is paying under $200K, making you follow government employment rules, work on an antiquated public works project, and giving you a terrible career development experience, it shouldn’t be any surprise the recruiting problem they face. You can’t get the talent you need for this project because the talent you need knows that 500 is bigger than 200.

rubidium 6y ago
Just a datapoint: I (And lots of other people) could readily build and maintain a team of software engineers for $109-$134k salary in the Midwest that would be fully competent in achieving anything the irs needed.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  I’m confident that that’s true in the “bulk construction” aspect of the project, which is of course an enormously important component of the task. I’m not at all convinced that that’s true for the architecture and strategic planning aspect of how to tackle the project. (I’m talking about industry salary rate for top leaders and architects here; I’m not suggesting that people with this profile aren’t available in the Midwest; I’m merely stating that they could make wildly more than $134K in industry even in the worst-paid Midwest city.)
- csharptwdec19 6y ago
  As another datapoint. I don't know what he's making nowadays, but the IRS -does- have developers in the midwest (Michigan). A colleague I went to college with actually wound up getting a job with them after college. At the time the pay wasn't 'great' but the pension looked good. OTOH, this was in 2007, so if nothing else he had stability during those times. Although, it was COBOL... that said, they didn't require any COBOL experience and he spent his first 2-3 months training.
- acdha 6y ago
  This is one of the strategies which 18F pursues: either remote work or working out of offices around the country is much less of a losing game than trying to match DC/SF salaries directly. It’s not perfect but given that the DC salary cap can’t be lifted without the Vice President and Congress getting raises it’s a lot more in their control.
magicalhippo 6y ago
Was just reading about the Norwegian Police which is trying to get a new IT director[1]. The police is in dire need of updating several old and complex IT solutions, and need someone good to help them through this process. Some are very upset that the salary is so high, about 3x what regular police officers are making. One quote was "The Labor Party cannot accept that our police officers earn less than half of what the police directors do". On the one hand I kinda agree as they don't seem to have any significantly larger responsibility in practice (if they screw up they don't pay for their mistakes), and well, the actual job is done by the team. On the other hand... if you're good at what you're doing then there can be lots of interesting places to work, and more money certainly makes life easier. [1]: https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/hinsides/72570672 https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/hinsides/72570672
- Kalium 6y ago
  A Labor party should understand that the ability to organize and direct the labor of workers is itself exceptionally valuable labor. The value even scales up with the number of workers involved, the locations involved, the number of other working relationships that must be managed, and so on. I understood some things better once I started thinking of management as organization workers.

tomohawk 6y ago

What usually happens in this circumstance is that the team forms a company and the government contracts with them for the work. Or, a large prime contractor reassembles the team upon getting a contract. The fact that this did not occur points to a lack of capability on the part of the IRS to manage contracts. The federal civil service really doesn't offer any sort of career path for technologists.