9 ms·

As an Asian American myself, I don't understand this notion of discrimination against Asian Americans by Ivy League schools. Per Harvards Class of 2023 Admissio

As an Asian American myself, I don't understand this notion of discrimination against Asian Americans by Ivy League schools. Per Harvards Class of 2023 Admissions data [1], Asian Americans makeup 25.3% of the admitted class. They're the largest minority group admitted. [1] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

wutbrodo 6y ago
It doesn't make sense to assume that the HS student population is uniformly qualified to meet Harvard's admissions bar (absent explicit racial discrimination). There's a reason nobody really accuses the NBA of racial discrimination in drafting players.
- shreygineer 6y ago
  It's not really fair to compare the NBA to Harvard. The NBA is a for-profit institution in the entertainment business that is interested in drafting the most talented players to get the most views and therefore, the most most money. Harvard is a non-profit institute that seeks to create a diverse & successful that leave a mark on the world, which therefore upholds the eliteness of Harvard.
  - hejja 6y ago
    harvard has the right to implement its own standards, to be sure. but who is implementing this, exactly, and on what agenda? it's "harvard" the institution, the non-profit business. instead of having a clear motive: making money, we have to guess what "diverse and successful" means. does a powerful institution in our society owe us an explanation for this? maybe not.
  - cambalache 6y ago
    > The NBA is a for-profit institution in the entertainment business that is interested in drafting the most talented players to get the most views and therefore, the most most money. So exactly like Hollywood who has rightly or wrongly be heavily campaigned against because of discrimination, btw it is ironic but if you check the numbers white women are over represented same as black people, the 2 leading-voices among the minorities, its is Asian- Americans, Hispanic-Americans and Native Americans who are completely sidelined in that industry.
polynomial 6y ago
This is the most puzzling aspect. Not sure how anyone could claim with a straight face Harvard unfairly discriminates against Asian applicants. There's definitely something else going on here.
- deleted 6y ago
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  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- hejja 6y ago
  Statistically, Asians have higher than average SAT, ACT scores, this is not contested. In 1996 California passed prop 209 which banned affirmative action on the state level. All top UC schools have become majority asian despite California being less than 20% asian. Now considering Harvard, there was a federal case brought against it since asians scoring higher marks than peers were being rejected. Harvard's defense was that they were scoring lower, on average on "personality" scores -- a qualitative measure on admissions. By contrast, african americans were scoring highest on these personality scores. Ultimately, the case was won by Harvard since the intent was not determined to be pernicious. It's no question Harvard artificially diversifies its student body, but affirmative action does come at a cost.
  - crimsonalucard5 6y ago
    How was personality scored? Was this specified?
cyberdrunk 6y ago
In a system based on merit, they would get more placements.
- dwaltrip 6y ago
  Merit is not a perfectly objective concept. Someone has to come up with criteria based on whatever goals and values they think are important.
  - nordsieck 6y ago
    > Someone has to come up with criteria based on whatever goals and values they think are important. The most obvious criteria is: most likely to graduate. Some others that aren't bad: * Highest expected value of future donations * Highest expected value of impact (publication) * Highest expected value of future salary * Highest expected value of holding public office (the weighting here might be contentious) As long as all of the criterion are achievement based, I expect them to screen for roughly the same people, demographically.
    - harryh 6y ago
      Highest expected value of future donations This. This is the one. If you view everything Harvard does as supporting this goal, it all makes perfect sense. You don't necessarily want the smartest kids. You want the kids that are most likely to go on to make the most money AND the kids who are most likely to have a strong emotional connection to the university so they write big checks.
    - kenjackson 6y ago
      I’d add “most likely to become famous for a good reason.” Most likely to graduate is interesting. Almost everyone I know who didn’t graduate, it was due to finances. Purely academic reasons, at least anecdotally, seem relatively uncommon now.
      - nordsieck 6y ago
cambalache 6y ago
You dont understand until your kids get rejected despite having straight A, high SAT scores and strong background, just because many other people whose ancestors come from a similar region on earth were as highly qualified too. So your kid is out not because of her fault but because of her race. I suppose many people are OK because deep down they think they will be in the accepted portion but still.
- CapricornNoble 6y ago
  Just say that your child identifies as [insert popular identitarian group of the day] and put them between a rock and a hard place. They'll either have to accept your kid anyway, or admit that their agenda is BS and watch the facade crumble.
- grumple 6y ago
  And that person will still get into a great school. It just doesn’t have to be Harvard.
  - 0x00000000 6y ago
    Anecdote: I had straight As in high school, took every AP class they offered, 98th percentile SAT and got rejected from every single college I applied to except for one state school which I’m pretty sure they were obligated to accept me to for being a resident
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago
    Not necessarily. I have a niece who is a textbook A-plus Asian student, she didn't get into any top school nor did any UC-school accept her. She is in a CA community college now hoping to transfer later. (She did get into an expensive 2nd tier private college, but since Covid shut everything down she withdrew and transferred to a CC near home.) Years ago I tried to counsel her parents into letting her do extra-curricular activities that did not fit the stereotypical Asian student profile, but they would not hear it. Piano it was, rather than sports or other non-academic work/volunteering. They did not understand that an Asian girl with a 4+ GPA and years of piano training was not going to get a fair shake when it came to college admissions.
vgtheone 6y ago
They make up 25.3% of the admitted class but would probably make up 75-80% of the admitted class in a system truly based on merit. 4 out of 5 strong applicants are rejected simply because they're Asian American.
- usaar333 6y ago
  Let's not exaggerate things. Comparing UC or Caltech is probably best (granted they use less controversial socioeconomic factors). Caltech is 43% Asian American vs 27% at MIT. Note that the race-neutral number is somewhere in between (Asians disproportionately yield to schools that don't use racial preferences because they are discriminated against elsewhere)
  - rayiner 6y ago
    The competitive admissions high school I went to (which has an SAT average similar to Ivy League universities) has a completely race/SES-blind admissions system and is now 70% Asian.
    - usaar333 6y ago
      That's a function of local demographics as well though. Lowell high school in San Francisco has those numbers but that's in part due to (more affluent than average) whites long fleeing the SF public schools.
      - crimsonalucard5 6y ago
        But whites still are the majority in SF by a huge margin.
        usaar333 6y ago
        ? Have you ever been to SF? That's not true for the general population and even less true for youth. And the white youth that are there tend to go to private schools https://priceonomics.com/where-are-all-the-white-people-in-san-francisco/#:~:text=The%20median%20percentage%20in%20elementary,%2C%20and%205.7%25%2C%20respectively.&text=Half%20of%20San%20Francisco's%20elementary,elementary%20schools%20are%20under%203.3%25 https://priceonomics.com/where-are-all-the-white-people-in-s....

wutbrodo 6y ago

It doesn't make sense to assume that the HS student population is uniformly qualified to meet Harvard's admissions bar (absent explicit racial discrimination). There's a reason nobody really accuses the NBA of racial discrimination in drafting players.

shreygineer 6y ago
It's not really fair to compare the NBA to Harvard. The NBA is a for-profit institution in the entertainment business that is interested in drafting the most talented players to get the most views and therefore, the most most money. Harvard is a non-profit institute that seeks to create a diverse & successful that leave a mark on the world, which therefore upholds the eliteness of Harvard.
- hejja 6y ago
  harvard has the right to implement its own standards, to be sure. but who is implementing this, exactly, and on what agenda? it's "harvard" the institution, the non-profit business. instead of having a clear motive: making money, we have to guess what "diverse and successful" means. does a powerful institution in our society owe us an explanation for this? maybe not.
- cambalache 6y ago
  > The NBA is a for-profit institution in the entertainment business that is interested in drafting the most talented players to get the most views and therefore, the most most money. So exactly like Hollywood who has rightly or wrongly be heavily campaigned against because of discrimination, btw it is ironic but if you check the numbers white women are over represented same as black people, the 2 leading-voices among the minorities, its is Asian- Americans, Hispanic-Americans and Native Americans who are completely sidelined in that industry.

polynomial 6y ago

This is the most puzzling aspect. Not sure how anyone could claim with a straight face Harvard unfairly discriminates against Asian applicants. There's definitely something else going on here.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
hejja 6y ago
Statistically, Asians have higher than average SAT, ACT scores, this is not contested. In 1996 California passed prop 209 which banned affirmative action on the state level. All top UC schools have become majority asian despite California being less than 20% asian. Now considering Harvard, there was a federal case brought against it since asians scoring higher marks than peers were being rejected. Harvard's defense was that they were scoring lower, on average on "personality" scores -- a qualitative measure on admissions. By contrast, african americans were scoring highest on these personality scores. Ultimately, the case was won by Harvard since the intent was not determined to be pernicious. It's no question Harvard artificially diversifies its student body, but affirmative action does come at a cost.
- crimsonalucard5 6y ago
  How was personality scored? Was this specified?

cyberdrunk 6y ago

In a system based on merit, they would get more placements.

dwaltrip 6y ago
Merit is not a perfectly objective concept. Someone has to come up with criteria based on whatever goals and values they think are important.
- nordsieck 6y ago
  > Someone has to come up with criteria based on whatever goals and values they think are important. The most obvious criteria is: most likely to graduate. Some others that aren't bad: * Highest expected value of future donations * Highest expected value of impact (publication) * Highest expected value of future salary * Highest expected value of holding public office (the weighting here might be contentious) As long as all of the criterion are achievement based, I expect them to screen for roughly the same people, demographically.
  - harryh 6y ago
    Highest expected value of future donations This. This is the one. If you view everything Harvard does as supporting this goal, it all makes perfect sense. You don't necessarily want the smartest kids. You want the kids that are most likely to go on to make the most money AND the kids who are most likely to have a strong emotional connection to the university so they write big checks.
  - kenjackson 6y ago
    I’d add “most likely to become famous for a good reason.” Most likely to graduate is interesting. Almost everyone I know who didn’t graduate, it was due to finances. Purely academic reasons, at least anecdotally, seem relatively uncommon now.
    - nordsieck 6y ago

cambalache 6y ago

You dont understand until your kids get rejected despite having straight A, high SAT scores and strong background, just because many other people whose ancestors come from a similar region on earth were as highly qualified too. So your kid is out not because of her fault but because of her race. I suppose many people are OK because deep down they think they will be in the accepted portion but still.

CapricornNoble 6y ago
Just say that your child identifies as [insert popular identitarian group of the day] and put them between a rock and a hard place. They'll either have to accept your kid anyway, or admit that their agenda is BS and watch the facade crumble.
grumple 6y ago
And that person will still get into a great school. It just doesn’t have to be Harvard.
- 0x00000000 6y ago
  Anecdote: I had straight As in high school, took every AP class they offered, 98th percentile SAT and got rejected from every single college I applied to except for one state school which I’m pretty sure they were obligated to accept me to for being a resident
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  Not necessarily. I have a niece who is a textbook A-plus Asian student, she didn't get into any top school nor did any UC-school accept her. She is in a CA community college now hoping to transfer later. (She did get into an expensive 2nd tier private college, but since Covid shut everything down she withdrew and transferred to a CC near home.) Years ago I tried to counsel her parents into letting her do extra-curricular activities that did not fit the stereotypical Asian student profile, but they would not hear it. Piano it was, rather than sports or other non-academic work/volunteering. They did not understand that an Asian girl with a 4+ GPA and years of piano training was not going to get a fair shake when it came to college admissions.

vgtheone 6y ago

They make up 25.3% of the admitted class but would probably make up 75-80% of the admitted class in a system truly based on merit. 4 out of 5 strong applicants are rejected simply because they're Asian American.

usaar333 6y ago
Let's not exaggerate things. Comparing UC or Caltech is probably best (granted they use less controversial socioeconomic factors). Caltech is 43% Asian American vs 27% at MIT. Note that the race-neutral number is somewhere in between (Asians disproportionately yield to schools that don't use racial preferences because they are discriminated against elsewhere)
- rayiner 6y ago
  The competitive admissions high school I went to (which has an SAT average similar to Ivy League universities) has a completely race/SES-blind admissions system and is now 70% Asian.
  - usaar333 6y ago
    That's a function of local demographics as well though. Lowell high school in San Francisco has those numbers but that's in part due to (more affluent than average) whites long fleeing the SF public schools.
    - crimsonalucard5 6y ago
      But whites still are the majority in SF by a huge margin.
      - usaar333 6y ago
        ? Have you ever been to SF? That's not true for the general population and even less true for youth. And the white youth that are there tend to go to private schools https://priceonomics.com/where-are-all-the-white-people-in-san-francisco/#:~:text=The%20median%20percentage%20in%20elementary,%2C%20and%205.7%25%2C%20respectively.&text=Half%20of%20San%20Francisco's%20elementary,elementary%20schools%20are%20under%203.3%25 https://priceonomics.com/where-are-all-the-white-people-in-s....