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I was responding specifically to the quoted passage, and the preceding sentence, which maybe should have been quoted; I will repeat both here: > One of the ke

I was responding specifically to the quoted passage, and the preceding sentence, which maybe should have been quoted; I will repeat both here: > One of the key grounds given by LGBTQ individuals for their right to equal treatment is that those traits are innate. But if, for example, sexual orientation is an innate trait, then changing a man attracted to men into a woman attracted to men is changing more than just that person's sex: it's changing their sexual orientation as well. The point that you claim to be reiterating is reasonable - what constitutes "a single change" depends on our choice of representation and it's not at all obvious what we should choose. I am undecided as to whether this significantly undermines the argument of the majority, lacking quite a bit of context. But I am saying that choice of representation, or ambiguity thereof, does not follow from any particular understanding of what is and is not "innate".

pdonis 6y ago
> choice of representation, or ambiguity thereof, does not follow from any particular understanding of what is and is not "innate" Perhaps "innate" is not the right word, but what I meant by it is simply that, in the view of LGBTQ individuals and supporters, sexual orientation is the same kind of property of a person as biological sex is, whatever word you want to use to describe that kind of property.
- dllthomas 6y ago
  So far as I understand, there's a belief (not entirely unsupported, although I don't know the details) that sexual orientation is a relatively immutable property of the individual, built in from a young age if not from birth. I think "innate" is a fair description of that. But I don't know that there's any particular beliefs about whether that property (sexual orientation) as encoded directly in the brain[1] is "prefers men" or "homosexual", which I think is what we're discussing here. This is why I suggested "epistemic primacy" - whether other things we can say follow from "homosexual" or whether it follows from other things. [1] for those who even subscribe to a physical understanding of consciousness - we're talking about a diverse group; otherwise we can possibly find an equivalent notion
  - pdonis 6y ago
    > I don't know that there's any particular beliefs about whether that property (sexual orientation) as encoded directly in the brain[1] is "prefers men" or "homosexual" Hm, yes, I see your point. I was assuming it was the latter, but it might not be; it would depend on the details of what's going on in the brain and the rest of the body.

pdonis 6y ago

> choice of representation, or ambiguity thereof, does not follow from any particular understanding of what is and is not "innate" Perhaps "innate" is not the right word, but what I meant by it is simply that, in the view of LGBTQ individuals and supporters, sexual orientation is the same kind of property of a person as biological sex is, whatever word you want to use to describe that kind of property.

dllthomas 6y ago
So far as I understand, there's a belief (not entirely unsupported, although I don't know the details) that sexual orientation is a relatively immutable property of the individual, built in from a young age if not from birth. I think "innate" is a fair description of that. But I don't know that there's any particular beliefs about whether that property (sexual orientation) as encoded directly in the brain[1] is "prefers men" or "homosexual", which I think is what we're discussing here. This is why I suggested "epistemic primacy" - whether other things we can say follow from "homosexual" or whether it follows from other things. [1] for those who even subscribe to a physical understanding of consciousness - we're talking about a diverse group; otherwise we can possibly find an equivalent notion
- pdonis 6y ago
  > I don't know that there's any particular beliefs about whether that property (sexual orientation) as encoded directly in the brain[1] is "prefers men" or "homosexual" Hm, yes, I see your point. I was assuming it was the latter, but it might not be; it would depend on the details of what's going on in the brain and the rest of the body.