5 ms·

What a weird way to attempt to be "egalitarian" - Harvard's only purpose is to be selective and exclusionary. You can't be both.

deathgrips 6y ago
Harvard is selective and exclusionary but it doesn't need to select the objectively best people, it just has to select people that are "good enough". Most of the value of an undergrad degree at Harvard comes from networking rather than the education itself. It's a club.
- whymauri 6y ago
  (Unrelated, but I love, love, love your username.)
  - deathgrips 6y ago
    Thanks, I'm glad I took it.
  - hombre_fatal 6y ago
    It's just a music group.
seisvelas 6y ago
Maybe they found that SAT/ACT were not good criteria for selecting the best candidates.
- andreilys 6y ago
  May or may not be related to the lawsuits they’ve been dealing with recently.
- bsder 6y ago
  SAT/ACT tests provide "objective" data that can then be used in lawsuits to prove discrimination. Can't win the lawsuit? Eliminate the proof!
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    They won the lawsuit...
  - seltzered_ 6y ago
    You made me dig up some articles on this: Harvard did win the bias lawsuit last year (october 2019): https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/01/harvard-ruling-admissions-racial-bias-asian-americans-latest https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/01/harvard-ruli... The organization challenging this is still there: https://studentsforfairadmissions.org/ https://studentsforfairadmissions.org/ Here's their latest complaint (march 2020): http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/SFFA-Wisconsin-OCR-Memo-1.pdf http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... Their latest update links to this paper (april 2020): http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/realpenalty.pdf http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
whymauri 6y ago
Don't forget that we're in a global pandemic that is severely limiting students' ability to take the test.
SCAQTony 6y ago
I am cynical enough to believe it's a loophole to keep overachieving Asians or Indians from owning a rightful slot instead of a son or daughter of a wealthy donor, politician, or celebrity.
- tathougies 6y ago
  Yup. The SAT exam fee is affordable (even if expensive) to everyday people. Other qualifications like intel science fairs, extra-curriculars, trips internationally, etc are all really expensive. As the child of middle-class immigrants from Asia, it's meant to keep people like me out, and instead select for the exclusive neighborhood I now live in and the Jones's who want to keep up. Great...
- jhowell 6y ago
  Why not both? Reconsidering the "rightful slots" of either group would diversify the institution significantly, though there are many who believe diversity is not beneficial. Perhaps Harvard sees a path to increased value in their endeavor to be more representative society.
- eesmith 6y ago
  Is "owning" a typo for "earning"? I don't see how anyone can own a slot. To add to your cynicism, university exams started as way to select WASPy prep school students instead of "overachieving" Jewish public school students. See, the tests included a section on Latin, which was much more often taught in private prep schools than public high schools. To detract from your cynicism, the intrinsic assumption is the SATs are meaningful indicator of "rightfulness." My understanding is that at best it shows a correlation with the first year of college, and that high school grades show a better correlation than the (gameable) SAT. Don't know if the WSJ article covers any of this - don't have a subscription. But the header suggests this change is only for the next year, as a response to the pandemic, and not (yet?) a long-term change, so it likely doesn't touch on these issues.
- vgtheone 6y ago
  Agreed.
mav3rick 6y ago
Would you have rejected a Harvard admit ? Are you just salty you didn't get in ?

deathgrips 6y ago

Harvard is selective and exclusionary but it doesn't need to select the objectively best people, it just has to select people that are "good enough". Most of the value of an undergrad degree at Harvard comes from networking rather than the education itself. It's a club.

whymauri 6y ago
(Unrelated, but I love, love, love your username.)
- deathgrips 6y ago
  Thanks, I'm glad I took it.
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  It's just a music group.

seisvelas 6y ago

Maybe they found that SAT/ACT were not good criteria for selecting the best candidates.

andreilys 6y ago
May or may not be related to the lawsuits they’ve been dealing with recently.
bsder 6y ago
SAT/ACT tests provide "objective" data that can then be used in lawsuits to prove discrimination. Can't win the lawsuit? Eliminate the proof!
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  They won the lawsuit...
- seltzered_ 6y ago
  You made me dig up some articles on this: Harvard did win the bias lawsuit last year (october 2019): https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/01/harvard-ruling-admissions-racial-bias-asian-americans-latest https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/01/harvard-ruli... The organization challenging this is still there: https://studentsforfairadmissions.org/ https://studentsforfairadmissions.org/ Here's their latest complaint (march 2020): http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/SFFA-Wisconsin-OCR-Memo-1.pdf http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... Their latest update links to this paper (april 2020): http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/realpenalty.pdf http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

whymauri 6y ago

Don't forget that we're in a global pandemic that is severely limiting students' ability to take the test.

SCAQTony 6y ago

I am cynical enough to believe it's a loophole to keep overachieving Asians or Indians from owning a rightful slot instead of a son or daughter of a wealthy donor, politician, or celebrity.

tathougies 6y ago
Yup. The SAT exam fee is affordable (even if expensive) to everyday people. Other qualifications like intel science fairs, extra-curriculars, trips internationally, etc are all really expensive. As the child of middle-class immigrants from Asia, it's meant to keep people like me out, and instead select for the exclusive neighborhood I now live in and the Jones's who want to keep up. Great...
jhowell 6y ago
Why not both? Reconsidering the "rightful slots" of either group would diversify the institution significantly, though there are many who believe diversity is not beneficial. Perhaps Harvard sees a path to increased value in their endeavor to be more representative society.
eesmith 6y ago
Is "owning" a typo for "earning"? I don't see how anyone can own a slot. To add to your cynicism, university exams started as way to select WASPy prep school students instead of "overachieving" Jewish public school students. See, the tests included a section on Latin, which was much more often taught in private prep schools than public high schools. To detract from your cynicism, the intrinsic assumption is the SATs are meaningful indicator of "rightfulness." My understanding is that at best it shows a correlation with the first year of college, and that high school grades show a better correlation than the (gameable) SAT. Don't know if the WSJ article covers any of this - don't have a subscription. But the header suggests this change is only for the next year, as a response to the pandemic, and not (yet?) a long-term change, so it likely doesn't touch on these issues.
vgtheone 6y ago
Agreed.

mav3rick 6y ago

Would you have rejected a Harvard admit ? Are you just salty you didn't get in ?