5 ms·

Well, it sounds so weird but intriguing. Do you mind telling the rest of the story?

noizejoy 6y ago
The story would probably make little sense to most HN readers, since it's very old and what was very non-obvious back then, became very obvious 5 years later. Around 1994/95 client/server was unassailable in board rooms (much like AI is now). And after initially speaking up against it, I ended up shutting up about my criticism of that architectural approach, since it would have just gotten me fired. So I ended up sneaking some early Internet technologies into a big client/server project I managed. Doing that ended up benefiting those developers in future jobs, and the company, because they didn't have to re-write that part so quickly. :-)
- epberry 6y ago
  Doesn't this speak more to the board's astounding foresight than inane projects?
  - xingped 6y ago
    I think he's saying the "foresight parts" were his initiatives, not the board's, and the board's part in it all had to be scrapped sooner rather than later while his initiatives did not.
  - lstamour 6y ago
    Somehow PC Mag seems like the best reference here: https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/clientserver https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/clientserver It’s hard to see the hype up close sometimes. The closest analogy I can think of and it’s an older one might be how in the mid-2000s everyone needed to make a “Web 2.0 mash-up” or how for awhile everyone needed “social” (remember Ping?)... if you were stuck with a stack based on jQuery and global variables, good luck transitioning to React without Facebook’s scale. Sometimes all you can do is try to stay organized, see a project through and hope it can evolve to something greater after the fad wears off...
    - kqr 6y ago
      > if you were stuck with a stack based on jQuery and global variables, good luck transitioning to React without Facebook’s scale. My team is doing exactly this on my initiative and seeing some positive effects already, even though we're only like 2% of the way there. Would you mind expanding on what you think is futile about it? I wouldn't want to be the one advocating something that with hindsight will look obviously stupid.
      - gvjddbnvdrbv 6y ago
        There's loads written on re-writes.
        drunkpotato 6y ago
        I may be misreading them, but GP seems to be doing the re-write in the recommended way, small chunks at a time. I think the advice cautioning against wholesale replacement re-writes is sound, but piecemeal transition is much more achievable. I think it took about 5 years to transition Wayfair from asp to PHP one page/system/scheduled task at a time, but the result was a working system at all times that improved with the re-write. Not that I have any love for PHP, but (Classic) asp was even worse. (I can’t speak to asp.net, never used it.)
        lukevp 6y ago
        Asp.net Core is fantastic. ASp.net is ok but not as good. Asp.net Core is cross platform, has a self hosted https server called Kestrel that is insanely fast, has a really sensible composition of middleware, built in DI, and a strong community. Hangfire is a great job runner, signalr is available with real-time push over web sockets, identity server 4 can handle all your Authn/Authz and Entity Framework Core + Linq is very powerful and a lot faster than the full framework version.
        drunkpotato 6y ago
        Cool, very good info thank you! I’ve heard great things about .net core but never had the pleasure of using it yet. I would love to play with F#!
- buu700 6y ago
  This may be a stupid question, but what does "client/server" mean in this context? I would interpret it to mean any networked or Internet-based application that has both client- and server-side logic, which obviously isn't anything special in 2020, but it sounds like you're referring to something else that would now be considered outdated?
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    I think they mean a dedicated thick client using the OS’s UI framework, rather than a web browser.
    - noizejoy 6y ago
      Not only the UI, but all of the business logic - so a very thick client indeed.
      - willcipriano 6y ago
        I've always called these direct database applications. The implication that the client directly connects to the database without the benefit of a middle tier.
  - naniwaduni 6y ago
    I might be totally off the mark here, but in context I assumed the contrast was with doing all work on a thick "client". A client-server architecture in principle lets you run thinner clients and offload the heavy work, but in practice the network would've been expensive. A modern analogue might be something like premature distributed computing.
    - Throwaway111117 6y ago
      Maybe rather than: A modern analogue might be something like premature distributed computing A modern analogue might be n, where n is more familiar to the composer of this, or, the source of information determining the production of this text is most familiar with n, where n does not include the word premature
- sime2009 6y ago
  Is this related to the "Network Computer" idea that Sun was pushing around that time in the 90s? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Computer

The story would probably make little sense to most HN readers, since it's very old and what was very non-obvious back then, became very obvious 5 years later. Around 1994/95 client/server was unassailable in board rooms (much like AI is now). And after initially speaking up against it, I ended up shutting up about my criticism of that architectural approach, since it would have just gotten me fired. So I ended up sneaking some early Internet technologies into a big client/server project I managed. Doing that ended up benefiting those developers in future jobs, and the company, because they didn't have to re-write that part so quickly. :-)

epberry 6y ago
Doesn't this speak more to the board's astounding foresight than inane projects?
- xingped 6y ago
  I think he's saying the "foresight parts" were his initiatives, not the board's, and the board's part in it all had to be scrapped sooner rather than later while his initiatives did not.
- lstamour 6y ago
  Somehow PC Mag seems like the best reference here: https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/clientserver https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/clientserver It’s hard to see the hype up close sometimes. The closest analogy I can think of and it’s an older one might be how in the mid-2000s everyone needed to make a “Web 2.0 mash-up” or how for awhile everyone needed “social” (remember Ping?)... if you were stuck with a stack based on jQuery and global variables, good luck transitioning to React without Facebook’s scale. Sometimes all you can do is try to stay organized, see a project through and hope it can evolve to something greater after the fad wears off...
  - kqr 6y ago
    > if you were stuck with a stack based on jQuery and global variables, good luck transitioning to React without Facebook’s scale. My team is doing exactly this on my initiative and seeing some positive effects already, even though we're only like 2% of the way there. Would you mind expanding on what you think is futile about it? I wouldn't want to be the one advocating something that with hindsight will look obviously stupid.
    - gvjddbnvdrbv 6y ago
      There's loads written on re-writes.
      - drunkpotato 6y ago
        I may be misreading them, but GP seems to be doing the re-write in the recommended way, small chunks at a time. I think the advice cautioning against wholesale replacement re-writes is sound, but piecemeal transition is much more achievable. I think it took about 5 years to transition Wayfair from asp to PHP one page/system/scheduled task at a time, but the result was a working system at all times that improved with the re-write. Not that I have any love for PHP, but (Classic) asp was even worse. (I can’t speak to asp.net, never used it.)
        lukevp 6y ago
        Asp.net Core is fantastic. ASp.net is ok but not as good. Asp.net Core is cross platform, has a self hosted https server called Kestrel that is insanely fast, has a really sensible composition of middleware, built in DI, and a strong community. Hangfire is a great job runner, signalr is available with real-time push over web sockets, identity server 4 can handle all your Authn/Authz and Entity Framework Core + Linq is very powerful and a lot faster than the full framework version.
        drunkpotato 6y ago
        Cool, very good info thank you! I’ve heard great things about .net core but never had the pleasure of using it yet. I would love to play with F#!
buu700 6y ago
This may be a stupid question, but what does "client/server" mean in this context? I would interpret it to mean any networked or Internet-based application that has both client- and server-side logic, which obviously isn't anything special in 2020, but it sounds like you're referring to something else that would now be considered outdated?
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  I think they mean a dedicated thick client using the OS’s UI framework, rather than a web browser.
  - noizejoy 6y ago
    Not only the UI, but all of the business logic - so a very thick client indeed.
    - willcipriano 6y ago
      I've always called these direct database applications. The implication that the client directly connects to the database without the benefit of a middle tier.
- naniwaduni 6y ago
  I might be totally off the mark here, but in context I assumed the contrast was with doing all work on a thick "client". A client-server architecture in principle lets you run thinner clients and offload the heavy work, but in practice the network would've been expensive. A modern analogue might be something like premature distributed computing.
  - Throwaway111117 6y ago
    Maybe rather than: A modern analogue might be something like premature distributed computing A modern analogue might be n, where n is more familiar to the composer of this, or, the source of information determining the production of this text is most familiar with n, where n does not include the word premature
sime2009 6y ago
Is this related to the "Network Computer" idea that Sun was pushing around that time in the 90s? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Computer