14 ms·

The HVAC losses are much less in the Model Y due to the heat pump / octovalve, something I wish they'd update the new from the factory Model 3s with. Sandy Munr

by SEJeff 6y ago

The HVAC losses are much less in the Model Y due to the heat pump / octovalve, something I wish they'd update the new from the factory Model 3s with. Sandy Munroe did a full Model Y teardown and has a whole segment on how this simple invention is brilliant as it increases real-world range. Edit: mentioned the octovalve, which has no equivalent in any existing EV (i3, taycan, and leaf included).

new_realist 6y ago
Other EVs have been using heat pumps for years, like the i3 and LEAF. I don’t know why they didn’t go with it for the 3, or retrofit it to the S and X.
- SEJeff 6y ago
  Not one like this. The Model 3 "superbottle" was the best in the industry for the problem they were trying to solve with it. The Model Y "octovalve" heat pump is the successor and does things even better (and it is patented FYI). https://insideevs.com/news/408437/tesla-model-y-teardown-heat-pump/ https://insideevs.com/news/408437/tesla-model-y-teardown-hea...
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    All I see in the video is a description of a heat pump. In what way is Tesla's heat pump better than, for example, Hyundai's: https://press.kia.com/eu/en/home/media-resouces/press-releases/2020/New_Heat_Pump_Technology.html https://press.kia.com/eu/en/home/media-resouces/press-releas...
    - SEJeff 6y ago
      Not sure if you’re familiar with the Model 3 super bottle. Here is an overview of that from Jason Torchinaky (who used to design heat pumps for a living): https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottle-easter-egg-is-a-fascin-1830992728 https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottle-easter-e... The octovalve heat pump in the Model Y improves the range by 10% (per an interview with Elon and Sandy Munro). I’ll note that the total range of the Model 3 LR is 322 miles and the Max range of the larger Model Y is 316 miles. This compares to the 111 miles of all electric miles in the Kia Soul EV, 258 for the Hyundai Kona, and 170 electric only miles in the Hyundai Ionia EV. To be fair, the press release is likely correct as in 2014, the Soul having that heat pump likely was industry leading. It isn’t even close to it today, and things like Tesla’s patented (but very strange) inventions like the octovalve are why. Today Tesla announced the Model S Long Range Plus is EPA rated at 402 miles. There really isn’t any competition (thr VW ID.3 likely being the closest).
      - clouddrover 6y ago
        > I’ll note that the total range of the Model 3 LR is 322 miles and the Max range of the larger Model Y is 316 miles. That's a function of battery size. The maximum battery size of the current Kona, Niro, and Soul is 64 kWh. Batteries cost money. The Kona, Niro, and Soul are all less expensive than the top end Teslas. > This compares to the 111 miles of all electric miles in the Kia Soul EV Not the current model. > There really isn’t any competition Sure there is. Tesla used to be the #1 BEV maker in Europe. Now they're #3. That's competition for you: https://www.schmidtmatthias.de/post/april-2020-european-electric-car-market-top-sellers https://www.schmidtmatthias.de/post/april-2020-european-elec... But none of this answers the original question. In what way is Tesla's heat pump better than Hyundai's?
        SEJeff 6y ago
        > That's a function of battery size. The maximum battery size of the current Kona, Niro, and Soul is 64 kWh. Batteries cost money. The Kona, Niro, and Soul are all less expensive than the top end Teslas. The Model 3 LR battery size is 75 kWh. Are you telling me a 9 kWh difference say ~15% is the sole reason for an almost 25% increase in range? If it is only a matter of the battery size, the range would be linear. It is a function of battery size, total mass, and efficiency. A more or less efficient heat pump is absolutely a defining part of this equation, especially in the cold, as the press release you linked stated. It is why the longer, wider, and taller Model Y has only slightly less range than the Model 3 when it should have less due to aerodynamics and increased mass. > Not the current model. Sorry, you are right. The 2020 Kia Soul EV range is 243 miles. The google card result is out of date. > Sure there is. Tesla used to be the #1 BEV maker in Europe. Now they're #3. That's competition for you: I was referring to competition when it comes to overall efficiency and range. The ID.3 and any EVs built on VW's EV chassis are the closest competition to Tesla has in that area. When it comes to price, it isn't hard to beat Tesla so you're right on this, but I wasn't being specific enough. > But none of this answers the original question. In what way is Tesla's heat pump better than Hyundai's? This segment dives much deeper into the octovalve / heat pump for you to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE and this podcast has both Sandy Munro and Elon Musk discussing the design in depth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pih4kU6yvz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pih4kU6yvz8 Tesla heat pump patent (with diagrams): https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190070924A1/en?oq=US20190070924A1 https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190070924A1/en?oq=US20... Kia / Hundai heat pump patent (with diagrams): https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160009161A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160009161A1/en TL;DNR: look at the diagrams from the Tesla vs the Kia / Hundai patents. The Tesla pump combines the heating and cooling for the cabin interior, battery, drive drain, inverters, and motors into a single package with a closed heating loop. It does it in an entirely novel "printed circuit board design" that uses zero tubes. The Hundai / Kia approach is more industry standard and much simpler. By being less ambitious, it is not as efficient overall as they still need separate heating / cooling systems for the battery, and/or separate cooling systems for the motors plus drive train. It isn't a real apples to apples comparison, which is what I meant when I said there is no competition. This sort of thing, or things like the use of Inconel, a super-alloy not seen in any other automotive manufacturer, in the Model S and X. Inconel is usually used for orbital class rockets like the SpaceX Merlin Engine Manifold or United Launch Alliance's new rocket engines. Or the use of the IDRA gigapress (first the OL 5500 CS for the Model Y in 2019. Later, it was upgrade to the OL 6100 CS. https://www.idragroup.com/index.php/en/solutions/machines/gigapress https://www.idragroup.com/index.php/en/solutions/machines/gi...), the worlds largest aluminum die cast machine for the underbody of the Model Y. When it was first done with the rear part of the Y body it was the first in the entire industry and created two parts. They've managed to get it down to a single piece with the upgraded OL 6100 CS. There is no one in the industry doing this. All of this ontop of Tesla creating their own Aluminum alloy using metallurgists on loan from SpaceX, who use a proprietary aluminum alloy for the Falcon 9 rocket body.

by SEJeff 6y ago

new_realist 6y ago

Other EVs have been using heat pumps for years, like the i3 and LEAF. I don’t know why they didn’t go with it for the 3, or retrofit it to the S and X.

SEJeff 6y ago
Not one like this. The Model 3 "superbottle" was the best in the industry for the problem they were trying to solve with it. The Model Y "octovalve" heat pump is the successor and does things even better (and it is patented FYI). https://insideevs.com/news/408437/tesla-model-y-teardown-heat-pump/ https://insideevs.com/news/408437/tesla-model-y-teardown-hea...
- clouddrover 6y ago
  All I see in the video is a description of a heat pump. In what way is Tesla's heat pump better than, for example, Hyundai's: https://press.kia.com/eu/en/home/media-resouces/press-releases/2020/New_Heat_Pump_Technology.html https://press.kia.com/eu/en/home/media-resouces/press-releas...
  - SEJeff 6y ago
    Not sure if you’re familiar with the Model 3 super bottle. Here is an overview of that from Jason Torchinaky (who used to design heat pumps for a living): https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottle-easter-egg-is-a-fascin-1830992728 https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottle-easter-e... The octovalve heat pump in the Model Y improves the range by 10% (per an interview with Elon and Sandy Munro). I’ll note that the total range of the Model 3 LR is 322 miles and the Max range of the larger Model Y is 316 miles. This compares to the 111 miles of all electric miles in the Kia Soul EV, 258 for the Hyundai Kona, and 170 electric only miles in the Hyundai Ionia EV. To be fair, the press release is likely correct as in 2014, the Soul having that heat pump likely was industry leading. It isn’t even close to it today, and things like Tesla’s patented (but very strange) inventions like the octovalve are why. Today Tesla announced the Model S Long Range Plus is EPA rated at 402 miles. There really isn’t any competition (thr VW ID.3 likely being the closest).
    - clouddrover 6y ago
      > I’ll note that the total range of the Model 3 LR is 322 miles and the Max range of the larger Model Y is 316 miles. That's a function of battery size. The maximum battery size of the current Kona, Niro, and Soul is 64 kWh. Batteries cost money. The Kona, Niro, and Soul are all less expensive than the top end Teslas. > This compares to the 111 miles of all electric miles in the Kia Soul EV Not the current model. > There really isn’t any competition Sure there is. Tesla used to be the #1 BEV maker in Europe. Now they're #3. That's competition for you: https://www.schmidtmatthias.de/post/april-2020-european-electric-car-market-top-sellers https://www.schmidtmatthias.de/post/april-2020-european-elec... But none of this answers the original question. In what way is Tesla's heat pump better than Hyundai's?
      - SEJeff 6y ago
        > That's a function of battery size. The maximum battery size of the current Kona, Niro, and Soul is 64 kWh. Batteries cost money. The Kona, Niro, and Soul are all less expensive than the top end Teslas. The Model 3 LR battery size is 75 kWh. Are you telling me a 9 kWh difference say ~15% is the sole reason for an almost 25% increase in range? If it is only a matter of the battery size, the range would be linear. It is a function of battery size, total mass, and efficiency. A more or less efficient heat pump is absolutely a defining part of this equation, especially in the cold, as the press release you linked stated. It is why the longer, wider, and taller Model Y has only slightly less range than the Model 3 when it should have less due to aerodynamics and increased mass. > Not the current model. Sorry, you are right. The 2020 Kia Soul EV range is 243 miles. The google card result is out of date. > Sure there is. Tesla used to be the #1 BEV maker in Europe. Now they're #3. That's competition for you: I was referring to competition when it comes to overall efficiency and range. The ID.3 and any EVs built on VW's EV chassis are the closest competition to Tesla has in that area. When it comes to price, it isn't hard to beat Tesla so you're right on this, but I wasn't being specific enough. > But none of this answers the original question. In what way is Tesla's heat pump better than Hyundai's? This segment dives much deeper into the octovalve / heat pump for you to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE and this podcast has both Sandy Munro and Elon Musk discussing the design in depth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pih4kU6yvz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pih4kU6yvz8 Tesla heat pump patent (with diagrams): https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190070924A1/en?oq=US20190070924A1 https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190070924A1/en?oq=US20... Kia / Hundai heat pump patent (with diagrams): https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160009161A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160009161A1/en TL;DNR: look at the diagrams from the Tesla vs the Kia / Hundai patents. The Tesla pump combines the heating and cooling for the cabin interior, battery, drive drain, inverters, and motors into a single package with a closed heating loop. It does it in an entirely novel "printed circuit board design" that uses zero tubes. The Hundai / Kia approach is more industry standard and much simpler. By being less ambitious, it is not as efficient overall as they still need separate heating / cooling systems for the battery, and/or separate cooling systems for the motors plus drive train. It isn't a real apples to apples comparison, which is what I meant when I said there is no competition. This sort of thing, or things like the use of Inconel, a super-alloy not seen in any other automotive manufacturer, in the Model S and X. Inconel is usually used for orbital class rockets like the SpaceX Merlin Engine Manifold or United Launch Alliance's new rocket engines. Or the use of the IDRA gigapress (first the OL 5500 CS for the Model Y in 2019. Later, it was upgrade to the OL 6100 CS. https://www.idragroup.com/index.php/en/solutions/machines/gigapress https://www.idragroup.com/index.php/en/solutions/machines/gi...), the worlds largest aluminum die cast machine for the underbody of the Model Y. When it was first done with the rear part of the Y body it was the first in the entire industry and created two parts. They've managed to get it down to a single piece with the upgraded OL 6100 CS. There is no one in the industry doing this. All of this ontop of Tesla creating their own Aluminum alloy using metallurgists on loan from SpaceX, who use a proprietary aluminum alloy for the Falcon 9 rocket body.