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> Don't just build Something™, build an industry leading product that customers want and love! The point of writing software is to get paid. If the process lea

> Don't just build Something™, build an industry leading product that customers want and love! The point of writing software is to get paid. If the process leads to something actually useful, good on you. If not, you still got paid. It was just a drill, life continues.

robocat 6y ago
That advice is OKish if you only ever want to be a mediocre employee clocking in to get your wages. I think you need to be far more proactive in training your mind if you want to become a founder [edit: of a successful business], or move into more responsible roles, or even just to get satisfaction from shipping great software.
- throwawaywrench 6y ago
  >if you want to become a founder Why do you need to work up to being a founder? Any bozo can start something new especially given that the vast majority of start ups either never go anywhere or flame out somewhere in the first year or two. Even I've "become a founder" a couple of times.
  - ReactiveJelly 6y ago
    Right, my goal is not to become a founder, my goal is to live a long time and retire. I used to be pretty close with the founder of my company and his life doesn't look like any fun.
  - hejja 6y ago
    a lot of people see being "a founder" as a goal because it gives you complete agency in your work. you could in theory define it as having a sole-proprietorship type lifestyle business. it's poignant in this thread because many people have worked on "meaningless" projects within a company for years on end - and you don't have a choice.
- saberdancer 6y ago
  One of the major benefits to having a less invested attitude is that you are not as annoyed or disappointed when things don't work out. In the end, most of us do not have a stake in the product we are building and the success of the product has only minor effect on the developer, by understanding it's a job and not life you will be happier overall if the project does not succeed.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
shultays 6y ago
That is highly subjective. Money is a motivation but some people seeks more from their jobs. I wouldn't work on a job if it is not really giving me a sense of accomplishment either.
- extra_rice 6y ago
  I currently work on a project that has struggled to make actual sense for a few years now. Sure I like getting paid, but there's a growing void in my soul.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  > Money is a motivation but some people seeks more from their jobs. I find this has a lower bound in terms of salary, and people find that lower bound is much higher than they like to admit.
- draw_down 6y ago
  Oh no, not subjectivity!
draw_down 6y ago
People here cannot bear the thought that software development could be, gasp, just a job. But there’s nothing wrong with shoveling the shit and getting paid.
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
Jobs where this kind of attitude prevails suck to work at. Frustration waits around every corner. And the more pointless projects and dysfunction permeates a company the more chance the other shoe will come crashing down any moment and the company will fall apart and people will lose their jobs.
- kristopolous 6y ago
  Some people are busy raising a family and just need a paycheck. It's not me either but I get it.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    I wish I could do it, life would have been much easier.
  - tluyben2 6y ago
    Highly anecdotal, but 100% of the software devs I know in this position (living paycheck to paycheck) are living above their means, in a city. If they moved to the countryside (in another country if need be), they would have to work 2 months a year with the same pay with a larger house, garden, savings etc. After covid it is actually easy to do, but before as well if you are not completely horrible at your job. However, they are never going to do it; they need to live where they live for some reason. In that case; I do not get it. Moving is easy, at least in the EU. They could own their house (there are many houses for sale in villages and country across the EU for 50-100k with garden etc so even in a tight city wage you can immediately own and rapidly pay off a house) and suddenly save money. But then again, I am not attached to places and especially not cities (finally a lucky bet with covid) so maybe I just do not get it.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      I feel like your version of reality is different to the one most people live in. Highly skilled people live in big expensive cities because that's where the best jobs and most professional and social opportunities are. Once you move to the countryside your jobs and networking opportunities plummet and you'll have to endure a soul crushing commute unless you work remotely or your house and your job are close to train stations on the same route, not to mention, at least in Austria, shit internet. People want to live with or interact with like minded people and it's much easier to find what your looking for in a big city. The countryside is lonelier and more conservative. Sure, you can have a lot of space and a garden, but not everyone is into that and most would prefer to have the amenities of a city: sports gyms, cinemas, cafes, bars, meetups, good doctors without having to drive everywhere or wait for a train.
kristopolous 6y ago
It's really wild how different people's reasons can be for doing the same thing. I think a better future world is still possible and needs to be built by passionate people. I'm in software to try to do my small part in getting there. I probably won't succeed but that's why it's a BHAG. I also don't ever want kids, a spouse, and am perfectly happy riding the bus or a bike so yeah, my annual income needs are usually met somewhere around February and lounging around gets old eventually. Your system sometimes works better ... I really can't do anything unless I'm passionate about it. I can sit in a chair from 6am-11pm and will get nothing done for weeks if I don't believe in it. It's stupid and I need to get over it. I kinda wish someone waving some cash in front of my face was enough to get me to do something. That'd be much easier because I could be the one waving it.
bowlich 6y ago
Except when management finally wises up and realizes the product has no future... neither do you. Much better to look around and find the product/project that is actually going to spawn revenue for the company and get on that team. When layoffs come, you've a much better chance of weathering the storm.* * No guarantee that management won't do something stupid and lay off the golden egg under some stubborn belief the money sink will someday take off.
product50 6y ago
This is terrible advice and this type of thinking is a common indicator of an employee who is not motivated. The goal is to not just build but build products customers want.
gloryless 6y ago
I don't think it is. In my experience this attitude produces poor work and is a drain on the rest of the team.
- nurettin 6y ago
  My experience is that realistic people who are solution oriented are valuable. Those tantric attitude people are unemployable.
trixie_ 6y ago
That's like your opinion. I write software because it's fun. Getting paid is icing on the cake.
sanitycheck 6y ago
I agree with you, but I would add that on most software projects it's possible to find a way to derive satisfaction from the work. Solving problems and writing elegant code is good, whether it's running the next Amazon or streaming intrusive ads to a Smart Toothbrush or whatever. (I'd draw a line at weapons systems, gambling, automated extortion etc - but YMMV.) Economic value rarely correlates to more 'human' measures of value - which is depressing but nevertheless useful to me as someone whose skills are societally useless but moderately lucrative. I suspect many of us here are in the same boat.

robocat 6y ago

That advice is OKish if you only ever want to be a mediocre employee clocking in to get your wages. I think you need to be far more proactive in training your mind if you want to become a founder [edit: of a successful business], or move into more responsible roles, or even just to get satisfaction from shipping great software.

throwawaywrench 6y ago
>if you want to become a founder Why do you need to work up to being a founder? Any bozo can start something new especially given that the vast majority of start ups either never go anywhere or flame out somewhere in the first year or two. Even I've "become a founder" a couple of times.
- ReactiveJelly 6y ago
  Right, my goal is not to become a founder, my goal is to live a long time and retire. I used to be pretty close with the founder of my company and his life doesn't look like any fun.
- hejja 6y ago
  a lot of people see being "a founder" as a goal because it gives you complete agency in your work. you could in theory define it as having a sole-proprietorship type lifestyle business. it's poignant in this thread because many people have worked on "meaningless" projects within a company for years on end - and you don't have a choice.
saberdancer 6y ago
One of the major benefits to having a less invested attitude is that you are not as annoyed or disappointed when things don't work out. In the end, most of us do not have a stake in the product we are building and the success of the product has only minor effect on the developer, by understanding it's a job and not life you will be happier overall if the project does not succeed.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

shultays 6y ago

That is highly subjective. Money is a motivation but some people seeks more from their jobs. I wouldn't work on a job if it is not really giving me a sense of accomplishment either.

extra_rice 6y ago
I currently work on a project that has struggled to make actual sense for a few years now. Sure I like getting paid, but there's a growing void in my soul.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
> Money is a motivation but some people seeks more from their jobs. I find this has a lower bound in terms of salary, and people find that lower bound is much higher than they like to admit.
draw_down 6y ago
Oh no, not subjectivity!

draw_down 6y ago

People here cannot bear the thought that software development could be, gasp, just a job. But there’s nothing wrong with shoveling the shit and getting paid.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

Jobs where this kind of attitude prevails suck to work at. Frustration waits around every corner. And the more pointless projects and dysfunction permeates a company the more chance the other shoe will come crashing down any moment and the company will fall apart and people will lose their jobs.

kristopolous 6y ago
Some people are busy raising a family and just need a paycheck. It's not me either but I get it.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  I wish I could do it, life would have been much easier.
- tluyben2 6y ago
  Highly anecdotal, but 100% of the software devs I know in this position (living paycheck to paycheck) are living above their means, in a city. If they moved to the countryside (in another country if need be), they would have to work 2 months a year with the same pay with a larger house, garden, savings etc. After covid it is actually easy to do, but before as well if you are not completely horrible at your job. However, they are never going to do it; they need to live where they live for some reason. In that case; I do not get it. Moving is easy, at least in the EU. They could own their house (there are many houses for sale in villages and country across the EU for 50-100k with garden etc so even in a tight city wage you can immediately own and rapidly pay off a house) and suddenly save money. But then again, I am not attached to places and especially not cities (finally a lucky bet with covid) so maybe I just do not get it.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    I feel like your version of reality is different to the one most people live in. Highly skilled people live in big expensive cities because that's where the best jobs and most professional and social opportunities are. Once you move to the countryside your jobs and networking opportunities plummet and you'll have to endure a soul crushing commute unless you work remotely or your house and your job are close to train stations on the same route, not to mention, at least in Austria, shit internet. People want to live with or interact with like minded people and it's much easier to find what your looking for in a big city. The countryside is lonelier and more conservative. Sure, you can have a lot of space and a garden, but not everyone is into that and most would prefer to have the amenities of a city: sports gyms, cinemas, cafes, bars, meetups, good doctors without having to drive everywhere or wait for a train.

kristopolous 6y ago

It's really wild how different people's reasons can be for doing the same thing. I think a better future world is still possible and needs to be built by passionate people. I'm in software to try to do my small part in getting there. I probably won't succeed but that's why it's a BHAG. I also don't ever want kids, a spouse, and am perfectly happy riding the bus or a bike so yeah, my annual income needs are usually met somewhere around February and lounging around gets old eventually. Your system sometimes works better ... I really can't do anything unless I'm passionate about it. I can sit in a chair from 6am-11pm and will get nothing done for weeks if I don't believe in it. It's stupid and I need to get over it. I kinda wish someone waving some cash in front of my face was enough to get me to do something. That'd be much easier because I could be the one waving it.

bowlich 6y ago

Except when management finally wises up and realizes the product has no future... neither do you. Much better to look around and find the product/project that is actually going to spawn revenue for the company and get on that team. When layoffs come, you've a much better chance of weathering the storm.* * No guarantee that management won't do something stupid and lay off the golden egg under some stubborn belief the money sink will someday take off.

product50 6y ago

This is terrible advice and this type of thinking is a common indicator of an employee who is not motivated. The goal is to not just build but build products customers want.

gloryless 6y ago

I don't think it is. In my experience this attitude produces poor work and is a drain on the rest of the team.

nurettin 6y ago
My experience is that realistic people who are solution oriented are valuable. Those tantric attitude people are unemployable.

trixie_ 6y ago

That's like your opinion. I write software because it's fun. Getting paid is icing on the cake.

sanitycheck 6y ago

I agree with you, but I would add that on most software projects it's possible to find a way to derive satisfaction from the work. Solving problems and writing elegant code is good, whether it's running the next Amazon or streaming intrusive ads to a Smart Toothbrush or whatever. (I'd draw a line at weapons systems, gambling, automated extortion etc - but YMMV.) Economic value rarely correlates to more 'human' measures of value - which is depressing but nevertheless useful to me as someone whose skills are societally useless but moderately lucrative. I suspect many of us here are in the same boat.