4 ms·

If your initial response to this is negative, and you aren't a member of a demographic that doesn't have recent, painful memories of slavery with horrible, trag

If your initial response to this is negative, and you aren't a member of a demographic that doesn't have recent, painful memories of slavery with horrible, tragic effects that persist to this day, then you really need to check yourself. For some people who've been through this trauma, the words "master" and "slave" evoke one painful meaning first, before the alternative meaning is understood. If you've never personally experienced something like this, I've read it described as being punched in the stomach. And it's wholely unnecessary, so why not change it? Words matter. Maybe they don't to you, but trust that people aren't lying when they say it does to them. I'm super disappointed by the callous response to this: when people talk about gatekeeping in tech, or the myriad failures of tech to be accessible to marginalized people, this is what they mean. This is the culture that enables that.

AdrianB1 6y ago
>> a demographic that doesn't have recent, painful memories of slavery with horrible, tragic effects that persist to this day "Recent" means about 2-300 years? I thought slavery was abolished in US over 150 years ago, that is several generations that never met, so other than books where are the memories? Have you ever met a slave? Have you ever heard about a slave in your lifetime? Do you know anyone who ever talked to a slave?
- chillacy 6y ago
  I think the idea is that despite the time difference, some black americans in industry find it distasteful because identity is a tricky thing which persists. Though this HN thread is really missing that perspective... Anyways, there are plenty of southerners who care a great deal about confederate icons despite being just as far apart in time, why do they care about statues and flags of people who they have never met, who they have never talked to? There's still some sense of being wronged (I once listened to someone from Georgea talk about Sherman's March with a great degree of pain).
- musingsole 6y ago
  Hardly. It's more uncommon by the day, but there are living first generation descendants of American slaves (https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96581933 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=965819...). So yeah, there's still a number of Americans who have talked to a former slave.
- vector_spaces 6y ago
  Recent means within 2 lifetimes (in other words, possibly within the lifetime of someone's great grandparents), and only one if you count the systems of indentured servitude that existed throughout the United States in the aftermath of the civil war[1] -- not to mention the modern institution prison labor which is the legacy of these very systems. Black people weren't "free" in the sense of "empowered to thrive" -- they were "free" in the sense that "slavery on paper is illegal (except where states and local laws allow it under a different name), but you are still legally second class citizens, will possibly very quickly find yourself subject to extreme violence, imprisonment, death, or all of the above if any white stranger doesn't like the way you're looking at them, and you'll have access to subpar everything -- from medical care, to education, to service at a restaurant" And it is recent relative to the scale of the trauma it wrought -- we're talking an entire population of people subject to extreme brutality and repression. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_unfree_labor_in_the_United_States#Peonage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_unfree_labor_in_the...
enumjorge 6y ago
> but trust that people aren't lying when they say it does to them. Please know that I ask this with all sincerity: does it matter to them? I'm a racial minority, but not black, and I would find it surprising if this was a top of mind issue for black employees in tech. I mean, you'll always find someone who feels some way about some topic, and I'm sure that this terminology would not have been a black person's first choice but is this something that black people in tech, in general, feel needs to be fixed? If so, count me in. I mean it, I'll help. But if not, I'm not sure why taking on a non-trivial amount of work to move the needle a trivial amount is something we should pursue. People only have so much bandwidth, so why not spend it in pursuing causes that will have a large impact? Racial minorities have good reason to feel like they're often treated as second-class citizens in this country. Having police offers, over and over again, maim or kill people of color with no repercussions, for example, is the type of b.s. that keeps the wounds of slavery alive and raw today. The name of a branch in source code? I'm not denying that it bothers some people, but I'm willing to bet if you fixed the real problems that plague minorities, this type of stuff would not even be an issue.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jjeaff 6y ago
  Look up micro-agressions. Not the ever so fragile anti-pc political rhetoric. Look up the peer reviewed paychological studies on it. Most black people aren't directly affected by police killings. It's the day to day drip of racism that they have to deal with that saps their mental energy.
asjw 6y ago
> and you aren't a member of a demographic that doesn't have recent, painful memories But who does? Where I come from (Rome) in 1515 the ruler of the times, the Pope, condemned slavery even if it was legal. US abolished it 360 years later and it's still not pacified about it. Maybe there are other issues to address first, in some countries more than others. Maybe.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  You don't think slavery has carried any effects forward two or three generations? You don't have to have experienced it directly to be experiencing it's effects.
sukilot 6y ago
Does this theory also apply to the computer terms "kill" and "abort", which are current ongoing traumas almost everywhere? Does it apply to the use of "Hitler" in the name of a popular office party game? Or one of HN's favorite terms "wage slavery"?
allanmacgregor 6y ago
As I am disappointed by the callousness of these changes and how little they achieve. Words matter and terminology matters. My main problem with these changes is that they seem to be done with the intention of virtue signaling by a bunch of white dudes. Fail to consider: - 90% of the world doesn't share the US experience or baggage with the terminology - Changing standard terminology breaks communication standards, tutorials, and ubiquitous language we use to communicate in our profession. Finally, this sets a precedent and can and will devolve wasting time, development efforts and making things worse without creating any meaningful positive change. The other trend going on right now is dropping `master` from use on git repositories, when in reality `master` in that context has nothing to do with race. Where do we stop? Should we start going after universities for using the term master's degree? Do we need to boycott the World Chess Championship since chess is inherently racist; after all White moves first!!! I'm all from inclusivity, for making people feel welcomed, and for us to build a better society; I just don't agree this is how we do it.

AdrianB1 6y ago

>> a demographic that doesn't have recent, painful memories of slavery with horrible, tragic effects that persist to this day "Recent" means about 2-300 years? I thought slavery was abolished in US over 150 years ago, that is several generations that never met, so other than books where are the memories? Have you ever met a slave? Have you ever heard about a slave in your lifetime? Do you know anyone who ever talked to a slave?

chillacy 6y ago
I think the idea is that despite the time difference, some black americans in industry find it distasteful because identity is a tricky thing which persists. Though this HN thread is really missing that perspective... Anyways, there are plenty of southerners who care a great deal about confederate icons despite being just as far apart in time, why do they care about statues and flags of people who they have never met, who they have never talked to? There's still some sense of being wronged (I once listened to someone from Georgea talk about Sherman's March with a great degree of pain).
musingsole 6y ago
Hardly. It's more uncommon by the day, but there are living first generation descendants of American slaves (https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96581933 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=965819...). So yeah, there's still a number of Americans who have talked to a former slave.
vector_spaces 6y ago
Recent means within 2 lifetimes (in other words, possibly within the lifetime of someone's great grandparents), and only one if you count the systems of indentured servitude that existed throughout the United States in the aftermath of the civil war[1] -- not to mention the modern institution prison labor which is the legacy of these very systems. Black people weren't "free" in the sense of "empowered to thrive" -- they were "free" in the sense that "slavery on paper is illegal (except where states and local laws allow it under a different name), but you are still legally second class citizens, will possibly very quickly find yourself subject to extreme violence, imprisonment, death, or all of the above if any white stranger doesn't like the way you're looking at them, and you'll have access to subpar everything -- from medical care, to education, to service at a restaurant" And it is recent relative to the scale of the trauma it wrought -- we're talking an entire population of people subject to extreme brutality and repression. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_unfree_labor_in_the_United_States#Peonage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_unfree_labor_in_the...

enumjorge 6y ago

> but trust that people aren't lying when they say it does to them. Please know that I ask this with all sincerity: does it matter to them? I'm a racial minority, but not black, and I would find it surprising if this was a top of mind issue for black employees in tech. I mean, you'll always find someone who feels some way about some topic, and I'm sure that this terminology would not have been a black person's first choice but is this something that black people in tech, in general, feel needs to be fixed? If so, count me in. I mean it, I'll help. But if not, I'm not sure why taking on a non-trivial amount of work to move the needle a trivial amount is something we should pursue. People only have so much bandwidth, so why not spend it in pursuing causes that will have a large impact? Racial minorities have good reason to feel like they're often treated as second-class citizens in this country. Having police offers, over and over again, maim or kill people of color with no repercussions, for example, is the type of b.s. that keeps the wounds of slavery alive and raw today. The name of a branch in source code? I'm not denying that it bothers some people, but I'm willing to bet if you fixed the real problems that plague minorities, this type of stuff would not even be an issue.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jjeaff 6y ago
Look up micro-agressions. Not the ever so fragile anti-pc political rhetoric. Look up the peer reviewed paychological studies on it. Most black people aren't directly affected by police killings. It's the day to day drip of racism that they have to deal with that saps their mental energy.

asjw 6y ago

> and you aren't a member of a demographic that doesn't have recent, painful memories But who does? Where I come from (Rome) in 1515 the ruler of the times, the Pope, condemned slavery even if it was legal. US abolished it 360 years later and it's still not pacified about it. Maybe there are other issues to address first, in some countries more than others. Maybe.

jjeaff 6y ago
You don't think slavery has carried any effects forward two or three generations? You don't have to have experienced it directly to be experiencing it's effects.

sukilot 6y ago

Does this theory also apply to the computer terms "kill" and "abort", which are current ongoing traumas almost everywhere? Does it apply to the use of "Hitler" in the name of a popular office party game? Or one of HN's favorite terms "wage slavery"?

allanmacgregor 6y ago

As I am disappointed by the callousness of these changes and how little they achieve. Words matter and terminology matters. My main problem with these changes is that they seem to be done with the intention of virtue signaling by a bunch of white dudes. Fail to consider: - 90% of the world doesn't share the US experience or baggage with the terminology - Changing standard terminology breaks communication standards, tutorials, and ubiquitous language we use to communicate in our profession. Finally, this sets a precedent and can and will devolve wasting time, development efforts and making things worse without creating any meaningful positive change. The other trend going on right now is dropping `master` from use on git repositories, when in reality `master` in that context has nothing to do with race. Where do we stop? Should we start going after universities for using the term master's degree? Do we need to boycott the World Chess Championship since chess is inherently racist; after all White moves first!!! I'm all from inclusivity, for making people feel welcomed, and for us to build a better society; I just don't agree this is how we do it.