4 ms·

A lot of the other comments here seem absurd to me. We should all be able to imagine terminology that would be repulsive. (I.e., imagine if some tech term or pr

A lot of the other comments here seem absurd to me. We should all be able to imagine terminology that would be repulsive. (I.e., imagine if some tech term or project name were a racial slur. Would you really argue against changing it?). So yea, there's a line to draw somewhere; we can't say every technical term is immune from critique. So then the argument is that in this particular case it's just not a big deal and people shouldn't be upset about it. Well, if you're saying that, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your recent ancestors didn't have to deal with slavery! What percentage of people in tech are Black? Some single digit percentage? What if tech were 95% Black? Would we really say master/slave? Of course not. That wording has a lot of baggage for some people! So even if 9 out of 10 people don't have a problem with the word and see this as a PC slippery slope, that doesn't mean the minority is wrong to request changes. It's not difficult to change the terminology, and it helps some people, so why fight it.

noncoml 6y ago
Master is a word. Slave is a word. Being words, they have a meaning. In the context that are being used, it describes the abstraction very well. Is slavery absolutely wrong? Of course! That doesn't mean we will have to ban the words..
- ardy42 6y ago
  > Master is a word. Slave is a word. Being words, they have a meaning. And emotional content, which may differ from person to person. Society is not made up of robots. > In the context that are being used, it describes the abstraction very well. It's also gauche, at best.
  - noncoml 6y ago
    You, and I, are responsible for our own emotions. Once we start going down that road it will be very easy to do away with free speech because “emotions”. And I say that as an extremely sensitive person.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      >>> Master is a word. Slave is a word. Being words, they have a meaning. Let me put it another way: "wimp" is a word, and being a word, it has meaning. Does that mean I should choose to call you a wimp? Doing that would be rude, but free speech, amirite? > You, and I, are responsible for our own emotions. Once we start going down that road it will be very easy to do away with free speech because “emotions”. Do you refuse to account for others' emotions in your actions "because of" free speech? You speak like you feel like that's how you should behave. Like most things, there aren't hard rules set in stone for all time. Using "master and slave" in a computing context is becoming rude, and sooner or later those who continue to use it unapologetically will be frowned upon and judged. If you want to be part of that club, I suppose that's your choice, but it's not a stand for free speech or anything like that.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - noncoml 6y ago
        > Using "master and slave" in a computing context is becoming rude, and sooner or later those who continue to use it unapologetically will be frowned upon and judged You know what? I really don't care at all about if the term is going to change or not. If it changes it may be for the better. But you reacted exactly the way I expected and it's exactly what I don't want to see. Vilification will not get you far and you will not get you a lot of friends. If you do want to make this change, try doing it without threatening.
- zzo38computer 6y ago
  > In the context that are being used, it describes the abstraction very well. In some contexts, yes. But other times, other words would explain it better. I think that existing stuff probably need not changed, but in cases where a different word is more clearly describing it, I should think that the different word will do, especially in documentation. There are other reasons why the words used for commands should remain traditional (and American; even though I am Canadian and write the documentation in Canadian, I will use the American terms for the names of commands, etc; just as though, if I am writing music I will use neither Canadian nor American, but Italian), though. (Words also have multiple meanings, anyways.) > Is slavery absolutely wrong? Of course! That doesn't mean we will have to ban the words. I agree (with both parts).
scotu 6y ago
to your point: go check any post on Cockroach DB on HN to find a ton of "rename your software" comments, on the ground that they find it disgusting but try to remove the use of a term referring to something actually disgusting and "noooo, why would you do that, it's not like its referring to slavery! Hiding words is not going to change anything!"
root_axis 6y ago
> What percentage of people in tech are Black? Some single digit percentage I think it's presumptuous to imply that black people necessarily have a problem with master/slave terminology outside of the "owning people" context. I feel compelled to out myself as a black person to say that its absurd. The issue of the day is that police need to stop killing us with impunity. Believe it or not, there is actually a very limited amount of attention available for issues surrounding systemic racial injustice and distractions like this just exhaust that very limited resource and leave us with jaded citizens who roll their eyes whenever issues of social justice are broached. Even the very idea of "social justice" is considered a pejorative because of the focus on stupid issues like this by a privileged group of people who are so comfortable that they have time to worry about things like arbitrary technology labels.
- halostatue 6y ago
  Not everyone can directly make the changes that will stop police from killing black people. Few people can. If this microaggression can be removed, why shouldn’t it?
  - root_axis 6y ago
    > Not everyone can directly make the changes that will stop police from killing black people They can do exactly what they're doing with regard to this issue, spread awareness, except with regard to issues that actually affect the lives and outcomes of black people, not imaginary problems that don't affect black people in the least. > If this microaggression can be removed, why shouldn’t it? The presence of certain words outside of a racial context isn't a microaggression. Microaggressions are subtly racist behaviors acted out by people that make other people feel uncomfortable, embarrassed, or unwelcome. It's about behavior. However, I am not arguing it shouldn't change, I'm saying that now is the worst time to bring up this issue, it's just sapping the attention from the issue of police violence and systemic racism.
- zuminator 6y ago
  Am black, I totally agree it’s not a major issue, but I still think it’s not a bad change to make. This is just a hypothetical scenario but I’ve had similar moments before. I’m working with a white person, he says something like, "you mind hooking up that slave device?" And there’s this tiny bit of awkwardness, which feels unmentionably dumb to both of us, but is there none the less. We say nothing, and the moment passes. Except maybe, next time subconsciously, we’re a little more reluctant to work with each other, we don’t even realize why. If making this inconsequential terminological adjustment serves to help get rid of a minuscule, barely perceptible degree of racial friction, then great, why not I say.

noncoml 6y ago

Master is a word. Slave is a word. Being words, they have a meaning. In the context that are being used, it describes the abstraction very well. Is slavery absolutely wrong? Of course! That doesn't mean we will have to ban the words..

ardy42 6y ago
> Master is a word. Slave is a word. Being words, they have a meaning. And emotional content, which may differ from person to person. Society is not made up of robots. > In the context that are being used, it describes the abstraction very well. It's also gauche, at best.
- noncoml 6y ago
  You, and I, are responsible for our own emotions. Once we start going down that road it will be very easy to do away with free speech because “emotions”. And I say that as an extremely sensitive person.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    >>> Master is a word. Slave is a word. Being words, they have a meaning. Let me put it another way: "wimp" is a word, and being a word, it has meaning. Does that mean I should choose to call you a wimp? Doing that would be rude, but free speech, amirite? > You, and I, are responsible for our own emotions. Once we start going down that road it will be very easy to do away with free speech because “emotions”. Do you refuse to account for others' emotions in your actions "because of" free speech? You speak like you feel like that's how you should behave. Like most things, there aren't hard rules set in stone for all time. Using "master and slave" in a computing context is becoming rude, and sooner or later those who continue to use it unapologetically will be frowned upon and judged. If you want to be part of that club, I suppose that's your choice, but it's not a stand for free speech or anything like that.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - noncoml 6y ago
      > Using "master and slave" in a computing context is becoming rude, and sooner or later those who continue to use it unapologetically will be frowned upon and judged You know what? I really don't care at all about if the term is going to change or not. If it changes it may be for the better. But you reacted exactly the way I expected and it's exactly what I don't want to see. Vilification will not get you far and you will not get you a lot of friends. If you do want to make this change, try doing it without threatening.
zzo38computer 6y ago
> In the context that are being used, it describes the abstraction very well. In some contexts, yes. But other times, other words would explain it better. I think that existing stuff probably need not changed, but in cases where a different word is more clearly describing it, I should think that the different word will do, especially in documentation. There are other reasons why the words used for commands should remain traditional (and American; even though I am Canadian and write the documentation in Canadian, I will use the American terms for the names of commands, etc; just as though, if I am writing music I will use neither Canadian nor American, but Italian), though. (Words also have multiple meanings, anyways.) > Is slavery absolutely wrong? Of course! That doesn't mean we will have to ban the words. I agree (with both parts).

scotu 6y ago

to your point: go check any post on Cockroach DB on HN to find a ton of "rename your software" comments, on the ground that they find it disgusting but try to remove the use of a term referring to something actually disgusting and "noooo, why would you do that, it's not like its referring to slavery! Hiding words is not going to change anything!"

root_axis 6y ago

> What percentage of people in tech are Black? Some single digit percentage I think it's presumptuous to imply that black people necessarily have a problem with master/slave terminology outside of the "owning people" context. I feel compelled to out myself as a black person to say that its absurd. The issue of the day is that police need to stop killing us with impunity. Believe it or not, there is actually a very limited amount of attention available for issues surrounding systemic racial injustice and distractions like this just exhaust that very limited resource and leave us with jaded citizens who roll their eyes whenever issues of social justice are broached. Even the very idea of "social justice" is considered a pejorative because of the focus on stupid issues like this by a privileged group of people who are so comfortable that they have time to worry about things like arbitrary technology labels.

halostatue 6y ago
Not everyone can directly make the changes that will stop police from killing black people. Few people can. If this microaggression can be removed, why shouldn’t it?
- root_axis 6y ago
  > Not everyone can directly make the changes that will stop police from killing black people They can do exactly what they're doing with regard to this issue, spread awareness, except with regard to issues that actually affect the lives and outcomes of black people, not imaginary problems that don't affect black people in the least. > If this microaggression can be removed, why shouldn’t it? The presence of certain words outside of a racial context isn't a microaggression. Microaggressions are subtly racist behaviors acted out by people that make other people feel uncomfortable, embarrassed, or unwelcome. It's about behavior. However, I am not arguing it shouldn't change, I'm saying that now is the worst time to bring up this issue, it's just sapping the attention from the issue of police violence and systemic racism.
zuminator 6y ago
Am black, I totally agree it’s not a major issue, but I still think it’s not a bad change to make. This is just a hypothetical scenario but I’ve had similar moments before. I’m working with a white person, he says something like, "you mind hooking up that slave device?" And there’s this tiny bit of awkwardness, which feels unmentionably dumb to both of us, but is there none the less. We say nothing, and the moment passes. Except maybe, next time subconsciously, we’re a little more reluctant to work with each other, we don’t even realize why. If making this inconsequential terminological adjustment serves to help get rid of a minuscule, barely perceptible degree of racial friction, then great, why not I say.