5 ms·

Ideas like this are a great way to signal how privileged you are. Black people being murdered by the cops don't care about master/slave jargon in technology, it

Ideas like this are a great way to signal how privileged you are. Black people being murdered by the cops don't care about master/slave jargon in technology, it's hilariously out of touch that someone would even think this is at all important with respect to the issues going on right now.

jfrankamp 6y ago
I think some people like myself see the current issue as an iceberg like problem. Systemic racism is composed of many tiny parts. This is not an either/or question, but a yes/and one. You can both not want to be killed and care about the casual and lazy use of language. We can as technologists, change this without stopping work on police reform for example. The defensiveness/resistance to change is much more interesting to me. As for signalling, Sure we don't need to advertise it to ourselves and give accolades for something so simple. But we can do the bit and move on. I guess a lot of people are in love with the idea that if doing something is good then it must be being done in order to be _seen_ as doing good. That is bullshit unless you happen to know intent.
- hckr_news 6y ago
  Good point. Micro aggressions add up if you will.
  - sukilot 6y ago
    Somehow people forgot that "micro" was part of "micro aggressions". When you are in a comfortable space where macro aggressions are absent, it's worth looking at micro agressions. I'd rather GitHub keep "master" and have a onhover tooltip in the web UI showing a quote of the day about modern slavery or racism and linking to a way to take action.
- root_axis 6y ago
  I think now is the worst possible time to delve into this issue. America doesn't pay attention to anything for long, especially issues related to systemic racism. Right now when we have the ear of America we can't afford to squander that attention on trivialities that don't affect the lives or outcomes of oppressed people. The dynamics of racial discourse over the last decade means unimportant issues like this will only be used as an excuse to shut down the conversation around the issues that really do matter, yet we don't get anything material in return for dying on this hill, this is just social justice theater meant to make privileged people feel good about themselves.
  - jfrankamp 6y ago
    I hear that. Months from now would be better than now if as you say it derails better and more urgent conversations.
halostatue 6y ago
If the terminology is (1) non-descriptive (it is, especially in comparison to the various _alternatives_ that describe very different scenarios) and (2) offensive to people, why not change it? But let‘s be clear: there’s a race problem in technology, just as there’s a gender problem in technology. If someone whose ancestors were enslaved were working in technology and encountered the terms master/slave … how would they feel? Would this be another of the thousands of microagressions that they face working in technology today? Would they ultimately leave technology because they can’t get any of their white coworkers to take these microaggressions seriously? The answer, of course, is an ongoing yes to all of those. This is a trivial way to remove offensive microaggressions, and the pushback that is being received to this makes it very clear to racialized peoples that the real privilege is in the people who object to these inaccurate and offensive terms being changed for something more accurate and inoffensive.
- root_axis 6y ago
  There is absolutely a race problem in technology starting with the pipeline problem, extending into discrimination, salary disparities, microaggressions etc and I don't believe microaggressions are trivial. I disagree that the use of the master/slave terminology in technology is racialized and I also disagree that it falls into the category of microaggression. A microaggression is e.g. "but you listen to rap right?" or "what exactly are you?" or "wassup homie" directed only at black people. If the comment or action is not directed at a person it's not a microaggression. Finally, I am not opposed to changing the terminology, I think alternative words are fine, I just think now is perhaps the worst possible time in hisory to litigate this issue.
happytoexplain 6y ago
Insisting that all actions be measured by their "importance" in relation to whatever other more important things exist at the same time is useless. Ironically, you're gate-keeping morality. Additionally, your use of the word "hilarious" is petty mockery and betrays an us-vs-them mentality that doesn't have to exist, and therefore makes me less likely to believe you're interested in a good faith discussion.
- root_axis 6y ago
  > Insisting that all actions be measured by their "importance" in relation to whatever other more important things exist at the same time is useless We'll just have to agree to disagree on the merits of measuring ideas based on importance. When it comes to social justice there is limited bandwidth for change, devoting attention to unimportant trivialities that have zero material impact on oppressed people hurts the effort for productive change, it's a waste of political captial and welcome fodder for racist agitators. For what? A label in some software programs that almost nobody ever thinks about. Litigating this now is worse than doing nothing. > you're gate-keeping morality I'm speaking out against something I believe is actively harmful to the movement for social justice. Characterizing that as gate-keeping is a rhetorical trick that frames my position as inherently inappropriate without actually addressing the substance of what I'm saying. > Additionally, your use of the word "hilarious" is petty mockery It is what it is. The sentiment of changing meaningless computer jargon as a response to racist police violence deserves to be mocked. The only positive thing this does is make privileged people feel good about themselves. People are quite literally being gassed and killed in the streets, the only people in the headspace to bikeshed over computer jargon in the context of racial injustice are those with considerable levels of privilege.

jfrankamp 6y ago

I think some people like myself see the current issue as an iceberg like problem. Systemic racism is composed of many tiny parts. This is not an either/or question, but a yes/and one. You can both not want to be killed and care about the casual and lazy use of language. We can as technologists, change this without stopping work on police reform for example. The defensiveness/resistance to change is much more interesting to me. As for signalling, Sure we don't need to advertise it to ourselves and give accolades for something so simple. But we can do the bit and move on. I guess a lot of people are in love with the idea that if doing something is good then it must be being done in order to be _seen_ as doing good. That is bullshit unless you happen to know intent.

hckr_news 6y ago
Good point. Micro aggressions add up if you will.
- sukilot 6y ago
  Somehow people forgot that "micro" was part of "micro aggressions". When you are in a comfortable space where macro aggressions are absent, it's worth looking at micro agressions. I'd rather GitHub keep "master" and have a onhover tooltip in the web UI showing a quote of the day about modern slavery or racism and linking to a way to take action.
root_axis 6y ago
I think now is the worst possible time to delve into this issue. America doesn't pay attention to anything for long, especially issues related to systemic racism. Right now when we have the ear of America we can't afford to squander that attention on trivialities that don't affect the lives or outcomes of oppressed people. The dynamics of racial discourse over the last decade means unimportant issues like this will only be used as an excuse to shut down the conversation around the issues that really do matter, yet we don't get anything material in return for dying on this hill, this is just social justice theater meant to make privileged people feel good about themselves.
- jfrankamp 6y ago
  I hear that. Months from now would be better than now if as you say it derails better and more urgent conversations.

halostatue 6y ago

If the terminology is (1) non-descriptive (it is, especially in comparison to the various _alternatives_ that describe very different scenarios) and (2) offensive to people, why not change it? But let‘s be clear: there’s a race problem in technology, just as there’s a gender problem in technology. If someone whose ancestors were enslaved were working in technology and encountered the terms master/slave … how would they feel? Would this be another of the thousands of microagressions that they face working in technology today? Would they ultimately leave technology because they can’t get any of their white coworkers to take these microaggressions seriously? The answer, of course, is an ongoing yes to all of those. This is a trivial way to remove offensive microaggressions, and the pushback that is being received to this makes it very clear to racialized peoples that the real privilege is in the people who object to these inaccurate and offensive terms being changed for something more accurate and inoffensive.

root_axis 6y ago
There is absolutely a race problem in technology starting with the pipeline problem, extending into discrimination, salary disparities, microaggressions etc and I don't believe microaggressions are trivial. I disagree that the use of the master/slave terminology in technology is racialized and I also disagree that it falls into the category of microaggression. A microaggression is e.g. "but you listen to rap right?" or "what exactly are you?" or "wassup homie" directed only at black people. If the comment or action is not directed at a person it's not a microaggression. Finally, I am not opposed to changing the terminology, I think alternative words are fine, I just think now is perhaps the worst possible time in hisory to litigate this issue.

happytoexplain 6y ago

Insisting that all actions be measured by their "importance" in relation to whatever other more important things exist at the same time is useless. Ironically, you're gate-keeping morality. Additionally, your use of the word "hilarious" is petty mockery and betrays an us-vs-them mentality that doesn't have to exist, and therefore makes me less likely to believe you're interested in a good faith discussion.

root_axis 6y ago
> Insisting that all actions be measured by their "importance" in relation to whatever other more important things exist at the same time is useless We'll just have to agree to disagree on the merits of measuring ideas based on importance. When it comes to social justice there is limited bandwidth for change, devoting attention to unimportant trivialities that have zero material impact on oppressed people hurts the effort for productive change, it's a waste of political captial and welcome fodder for racist agitators. For what? A label in some software programs that almost nobody ever thinks about. Litigating this now is worse than doing nothing. > you're gate-keeping morality I'm speaking out against something I believe is actively harmful to the movement for social justice. Characterizing that as gate-keeping is a rhetorical trick that frames my position as inherently inappropriate without actually addressing the substance of what I'm saying. > Additionally, your use of the word "hilarious" is petty mockery It is what it is. The sentiment of changing meaningless computer jargon as a response to racist police violence deserves to be mocked. The only positive thing this does is make privileged people feel good about themselves. People are quite literally being gassed and killed in the streets, the only people in the headspace to bikeshed over computer jargon in the context of racial injustice are those with considerable levels of privilege.