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GitHub abandons 'master' and 'slave' terms to avoid row
- fuckyah 6y agoHere we go, ridiculous^2
- atombender 6y agoDupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23518123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23518123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500093
- agustif 6y agoOhh c'mon seriously. This is absurd and will break lots of docs bye to --set-upstream origin master
- jstummbillig 6y agoIt's not absurd. It will break a lot of docs. We will live.
- aeonsky 6y agoIt will break a lot of code and a lot of tools. For what? To virtue signal about something that has nothing to do with the current civil rights movement? Should we change the word master data? Git is also an offensive term. This is absurd.
- gowld 6y agoGit is a self deprecating name. It's not a term that normalizes (very) bad behavior. "Gimp" is a better example of a bad name.
- oarabbus_ 6y ago"It will break a lot of code" Yes, because there's no precedent for non-essential changes which break code. Maybe there's a good reason not to change the "master/slave" terminology but this sure as hell ain't it.
- aeonsky 6y agoOnce again, the usage here has nothing to do with master-slave idea. Obviously there is precedent for breaking changes. The benefits must outweigh the costs, the cost here is monumental, and the benefit here is non-existent.
- oarabbus_ 6y ago>and the benefit here is non-existent. To be clear, I'm not advocating for this change to occur. But clearly others disagree with you on this bit.
- komali2 6y agoI sense a bad faith interpretation of the word "offensive." The issue with master/slave is way more than "it's offensive." By changing the language, people are taking explicit steps to move away from language rooted in racism. That's an important part of moving a culture away from normalization of oppression of minorities.
- aeonsky 6y agoGit's use of master has nothing to do with the master/slave idea. The word master been a word longer than it has been associated with slavery. Not every use of master is offensive/rooted in slavery/racism.
- komali2 6y ago> The word master been a word longer than it has been associated with slavery. Hah, what? Slavery is as old as language, so I find this an interesting suggestion. Edit: good points about the origin of language below. Another interesting question: if there had been more black computer scientists in early day MIT, Stanford, etc, would these terms have been adapted to the new technologies?
- allan_s 6y agomaster -> maetre (old french) -> magister latin magister in latin, as far as I remember is the term used for the teacher (which is the same meaning in modern french, maître is how you call a teacher of primary school)
- bonzini 6y agoLatin used dominus for the master of a slave, and magister for someone who mastered or taught something.
- druddha 6y agoBut in this case, the term "slave" isn't being used, right?
- 6y ago
- gowld 6y agoOr they can quietly allow use of 'master' as an alias until it falls out of use.
- Steltek 6y agoCareful, there's nothing more permanent than a temporary fix. Github is changing the default branch name for new repos. New repos tend to have the most fresh eyes and agility. It shouldn't hurt too bad.
- andys627 6y ago>> “If it prevents even a single black person from feeling more isolated in the tech community, feels like a no-brainer to me”. This is worth breaking the docs. They’ll be easy to fix.
- cooper12 6y agoNaming the default branch "master" is only a convention, not a requirement. Therefore, docs should not make any assumption about the name but give it as an example or <variable>. The deficiency here is clearly in the docs.
- bonzini 6y agoYou said that: any example that uses "git rebase origin/master" would be broken.
- ivan_gammel 6y agoIt will not be broken, it will be just an example for a random branch with a strange name. People which are not able to understand the abstraction and to apply it to their own repository structure, must choose another job.
- komali2 6y agoOnly if a project has used master as the main branch. We use "develop" for whatever reason and "master" (created by default by gitlab) hasn't updated since initial commit. I agree that teams should be making these decisions on their own. It's just a branch name.
- ivan_gammel 6y agoThis. Poor choice of the original name was codified as some law, but it has never been a law and it’s time to clean up. I have seen discussions around the topic: “we have the master branch, what should we store there?” Semantics of the name were lost long time ago and it became just a random magic string in a ritual, which is not easy to explain or understand.
- dictum 6y agoDocs are less likely to be broken if GitHub implements some automated, global way to rename the main branch: when this isn't done in an ad-hoc, per-repo way, they can implement logic to redirect URLs. (Or, for a quick and dirty fix, always redirect master to the main branch)
- ubercow13 6y agoWhat if you already have a main branch?
- Udik 6y agoI don't get the title "GitHub abandons 'master' and 'slave' terms to avoid row". What row has this avoided? It seems it has generated a huge one, avoided none.
- ajkjk 6y agoYou have to assume that something happened that lead to this. Perhaps that was the row.
- Udik 6y agoFrankly I doubt it. While I saw a number of supporters of this change (albeit small compared to those who are outraged), those who have personal reasons to be offended seem to be a tiny minority if any at all. Those who advocate for the change seem to be all justifying it as beneficial to someone else- who though, it's not clear.
- pseudosavant 6y agoCan I 'assume' that there was a 'row' everywhere that decided to change away from master-type terminology? I could also assume that there was an overwhelming conscensus since they were able to act so quickly on something like this. Both arguments would not be based on any actual fact though.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- paxys 6y agoIn addition to being weird terminology, I have never found a case where "master/slave" is even used correctly. In almost every instance "primary/replica" would be a much better description for how the system actually behaves.
- alephnan 6y agoHadoop?
- bobmaxup 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)#Terminology_concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)#Term...
- vzidex 6y agoIn my field (FPGAs) master/slave is used correctly fairly often - having one module command another module is really common in HDL design. Although I'm happy to see "master/slave" gone, I haven't yet seen a good widely-adopted alternative. For example, "primary/secondary" is slowly being adopted, but I find it very confusing because it can also mean two modules that perform the same function in parallel, but have a different priority for receiving input.
- DangitBobby 6y agoleader/follower, or commander/soldier could work. Maybe king/pawn or queen/pawn if we really want to uphold the same kind of relationship as slave/master.
- vzidex 6y agoYup, after some thinking I've come to quite like commander/worker.
- buboard 6y agoreplica doesn't imply a power relationship. Master controls the slave , which is accurate - Master database tells the slaves what to write - Master clock tells slave the time - Master HDD controls the computer , so indirectly controls secondary -- though in this case slave HDD is more auxiliary rather than subordinate (this terminology isnt used anymore anyway) In any case, master/slave terminology is historical and generally unproblematic, except apparently in the US, but so many words are problematic for someone somewhere that it's not wise to go down that road
- jameslevy 6y ago"Slave" is not a term used by Git or Github, and its use of "master" is not related to the vocabulary of "master/slave". Not the first to say this, but the media seems to be getting this all wrong.
- gowld 6y agoHow does GitHub use "master"? In particular, how is it different from what is called "mainline" in other VCS systems?
- bonzini 6y agoThe only git-specific aspect is that every clone of a repository gets a "master branch" (more precisely a branch named the same as the cloned repository's HEAD, but that is 99.9% of the time "master") and that is the only branch that is automatically created in the clone, just like a "master disk" is used to make copies of the disk. This is actually a git concept not specific to GitHub.
- wgerard 6y agoCaveat: I'm fine with this decision from GH, just clarifying. I believe it's the same usage as used in music recording, e.g. > an original movie, recording, or document from which copies can be made.
- jameslevy 6y ago"Master" is similar to the master copy of a work. It is used as a reference to base branches from.
- sudhirj 6y agoThe 'master' branch uses the word the same way an audio recording does. There isn't a corresponding slave. The word does come up in database replicas, which are often called master/slave. I can see a clear case where that would be offensive. Renaming the master branch might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but it's just easier to do that right now, and it's a small price to pay.
- 6y ago
- mesozoic 6y agoScript to change it back https://github.com/DaniruKun/rename-branch https://github.com/DaniruKun/rename-branch
- aeonsky 6y agoThere is talk on the originating GitHub issue to make a list of repos/authors that still have master as a branch name as a way to shame them into compliance.
- akatom 6y agoWait, did they actually change someones live repo already? All my repos still have `master`.
- zelly 6y agoNot a good idea since this is all public. There will be spiders that gather usernames of those who switched back to master. It's probably better to just abandon github.
- komali2 6y agoWhy would you abandon GitHub because of this change? If GitHub is signalling a sympathy for the black lives matter movement with this change, seems to me you're signalling a direct opposition to the idea of making black developers feel more welcome. Is that your intention?
- ryanmarsh 6y agoThis is performative. Meanwhile there are literal slave markets in Libya and elsewhere in the world. Yet if you resist this feckless renaming side-show or call it out the mob proclaims you complicit.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- welder 6y agoMeh, just PLEASE don't call it "main". That's too generic. I like "trunk".
- carapace 6y agoI don't want to throw a tire on the fire but I'm going to emit my $0.02 at this time: If it's not a big deal, change it. If it is a big deal, change it.
- Udik 6y agoWhy don't you change your nickname? If it's not a big deal, change it. If it's a big deal, change it. Come on, we're waiting.
- carapace 6y agoMy nickname isn't "master".
- EForEndeavour 6y agoSo you're saying it's not a big deal...
- carapace 6y agoAm I?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- happytoexplain 6y agoThis is incredibly petty - I'm not used to seeing things like this on HN.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y agoYou're conflating cost:reward. If it's a large cost and doesn't actually matter, maybe don't change it.
- 6y ago
- iask 6y agoWhat about SPI and I2C protocols? In any case I always refer to those devices as nodes...Master and nodes.
- bonzini 6y agoI use controller and device.
- NightMKoder 6y agomaster/slave can definitely go - plenty of alternative terms and worth replacing the dated jargon. primary/leader/writer - or something more specific to your domain - all work. One piece I don't quite get - what does the branch name have to do with that? I always assumed "master" was from audio recording - i.e. a master record. Does that term also have dubious roots?
- tenaciousDaniel 6y agoThe word "master" doesn't even originate from the usage of the word in regards to slavery. This whole thing is just nonsense. If you want to replace master/slave, that makes sense, but it doesn't mean that literally any usage of the word "master" should now be discarded. We still have Masters degrees, for instance.
- kgwgk 6y agoAnd master keys. And master works. And dungeon masters. And MasterCard. And the treatment "Mister". And so on.
- chrisan 6y ago> I always assumed "master" was from audio recording - i.e. a master record. You are correct (according to the guy who picked master as the name) there https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1271477451756056577 https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1271477451756056577 I think this whole thing has been blown out of context. Master/slave I get, that's a direct correlation to one guy telling everyone else what to do. But the master branch has no say on the other branches. There are no implied slaves or demands. Going down this road implies any use of the word master in the negative All that said, I hope they go with trunk. We talk about branches, pruning, and trees yet the "trunk" of the tree is the "master"
- amenod 6y agoThey would never use `trunk`, it resembles SVN too much. :)
- clarry 6y agoI hope GitHub abandons the term "git", because dumb people might not be comfortable with it.
- Udik 6y agoGit is originally a derogatory term for people born out of wedlock. There's plenty of "gits" who might feel offended to be reminded of their sinful birth.
- sugarpile 6y agoIt would satisfy 100% of the same audience asking for this change
- komali2 6y agoDo you disagree that making black developers more comfortable is worth making changes?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- zcrackerz 6y agoAre black developers uncomfortable with the existing name?
- komali2 6y agoSome are, yes. As I said in another comment, merely "avoiding offending black developers" isn't reason alone. It's about what actions an individual and a company can take to explicitly work against the normalization of racism, while acknowledging the implicit bias against, and lack of input from, minority people during the creation of these technologies. If you'd like an interesting example I heard from a POC photography friend - she wondered if default camera settings tended to dramatically underexpose when working with black people subjects, if more black people had been involved in early photographic technology development.
- albntomat0 6y agoAre there any thoughts on what technical change will actually happen? Will github change existing branches? If I make a new git repo with the defaults locally and push, will github and local have different branch names? What git would do for this makes sense (git init -> branch main), but I'm not sure what Github functionality could change that'd make sense.
- logicalmind 6y agoThis is mentioned elsewhere, but the connotation of master in the context of source control seems to be more along the lines of master used in terms of artifact creation. For example, where you have a master copy of a film or album. This is quite different from the definition of master in master/slave terms. This is definition 27 on dictionary.com. of or relating to a master from which copies are made: master film; master matrix; master record; master tape. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/master https://www.dictionary.com/browse/master
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tchaffee 6y agoThe master terminology in Git is very likely historically tied to the master/slave metaphor, originally from bitkeeper. https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/...
- logicalmind 6y agoBut a branch from master is not a slave by any definition. Whereas a branch is a copy of a master. To be clear, I'm not against them changing this. But it just seems odd to base it on the implication that they meant it as master/slave when it clearly isn't used that way by anyone.
- tchaffee 6y agoI was responding to your very general claim that "the connotation of master in the context of source control..." Here is the bitkeeper documentation[1] saying "we are then going to modify the file on both the master and slave repository and then merge the work." Safe to say that's in the context of source control? If you meant to say "based on how git works..." then sure, that's a more accurate claim. https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper/blob/master/doc/HOWTO.ask#L223 https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper/blob/master/doc/H...
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y agoUhh, I am not going to get worked up over this. It is about as silly as whitelist and blacklist ( and who knows, maybe that will happen in my lifetime ). I do find it interesting that the movement broadly associated with BLM appears to have corporate sponsorship. But the pendulum is swinging way too hard and too fast. Examples such as these are already being used to discredit BLM. Very reminiscent of OWS btw.
- tenaciousDaniel 6y agoThey are looking to abandon whitelist/blacklist: https://www.clockwork.com/news/creating-inclusive-naming-conventions-in-technology/ https://www.clockwork.com/news/creating-inclusive-naming-con...
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y agoI am officially too old for this world. Thank you for sharing this.
- asadhaider 6y agoA few days ago I submitted a post[1] to an accepted pull request on the OpenZFS project to remove references to "remove references to slavery"[2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23484466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23484466 [2] https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/10435 https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/10435
- shiohime 6y agoSo brave, can we all give GitHub a round of applause for this one! This is literally just pandering to make themselves feel better lol
- microwise 6y agoI suppose some other terminologoes will soon be questioned, I hope parent/child always remains
- user12349876 6y agoparent node and child node used to be father node and son node before it was renamed to be more gender neutral
- jar3624 6y agoshould probably rename git as well because its derogatory toward unpleasant people. </sarcasm>
- allan_s 6y agoI hope gitlab will not follow this trend which is purely PR (pun intented), (if Sytse is reading this thread) , it will give one more reason to love them. As I really do think it's purely short-term thinking. As other may have said, regardless of where it comes from, most of people now use it with the idea it means "master copy". Soon: * git itself is an offensive term and is renamed * git blame too and is renamed * grammar nazi can't correct my broken English anymore (goodwin point <- but how do Jewish people feel about this term ? ) * robot comes from the term robota which mean slaves, but it's okay because that's not English. If it's not offensive in the USA, that's fine i guess ? And to finish, being of European background, master/slave for me is more linked to the greek cities period.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y agoIt is harder to use the "A: I am offended.B:So what?" today. The more vocal proponents are not above going after you personally if you exhibit wrongthink. That said, the robot example may end up being interesting. How far can this particular language purication can be taken?
- allan_s 6y agoI totally agree with you, we're replacing democracy by "power to the loudest". > How far can this particular language purication can be taken I'm not anti-american (damn I have to put this kind of disclaimer), but it will go as far as these american-culture-centered people will think X or Y go against their view. I think I understand more and more my Chinese friends who don't understand people who are trying to convince them "you're living in a dictatorship that's bad, see democracy is sooo good, why are you not listening to me", and they're just "I don't care, I don't understand why it's so much of an issue to you ?" and yes for robot, the more I think about it, the more I don't understand why that's not the first word to have been reviewed, because the very idea, popular conception of a robot is the humanoid-metal-thing doing your chores, you can't do closer to the meaning of "slave" they don't want to hear about !
- ogre_codes 6y agoA lot of people are missing the point here. Regardless of why it's called master, the term bothers some people quite a bit and the cost to use a different term is trivial. There is a small cost to updating existing projects, but for new projects, the cost to use a different term is zero. In return you make your workplace less hostile to some of your co-workers (or potential co-workers). This should be an easy decision.
- logicalmind 6y agoGoing simply by the conntation of the term, master doesn't imply some kind of ownership or control over anyone. In the source control world, the branches are more in control of development than master. But if we want to talk about words used in workplaces that do imply control and ownership, can we discuss "subordinate"? Because that word is the most analogous word to "slave" that is used in everyday business.
- dlivingston 6y agoScrolling through the Twitter threads that spawned this debate, I’m presented with nothing but the faces of (almost exclusively) white liberal men. It seems to me that, unless it comes from the mouth of a black person, opinions as to the offensiveness of “master” are worse than worthless.
- ogre_codes 6y agoThen maybe you should read the words of a black person on the topic: > So it’s like, you know what you’re saying is not right. You’re just not trying. https://madamenoire.com/1167067/working-while-black-my-coworker-used-a-master-slave-analogy/ https://madamenoire.com/1167067/working-while-black-my-cowor...
- logicalmind 6y agoThis link shows the problem of using master/slave. I think everyone in this thread is ok with moving away from using those terms. The problem is that the usage of master in terms of git, and github in particular, has nothing to do with master/slave. The word slave isn't even used in standard git or github parlance. What you're saying is that all uses of the word master implies master/slave, which is what people are disagreeing with. In the recording industry, everyone uses the term master to denote the production copy of combined tracks. The tracks that make up a master are not slaves. In the same way that branches that make up a master vcs are not slaves. In git parlance, master is where your builds come from for deployment. And branches are where you work on features. When branches are complete they merge back into master. How does this relate in any way to a master/slave definition? Based on the logic used, I would expect record studios to be moving away from using the word master as well.
- hotz 6y agoHonestly, how pathetic and flimsy of a society do we want. If we're living in a simulation, it needs a reboot.
- jb775 6y agoI'm sure the people who made this decision at github will lay their heads on their luxury goose down pillows tonight thinking they've done their part to make the world just a little bit better. In reality, they didn't actually help anyone, they've set the stage for coding/machine related headaches for years to come, and they've made themselves look like idiots. On the other hand, fascinating to see the power of a modern angry mob in action.
- wayneftw 6y agoThere are 2 distinct angry mobs now. I haven't counted the responses, but it looks to me like the great majority of people who responded to this here on HN, reddit and on twitter are against it and/or are questioning the value of making such a costly change.
- exdsq 6y agoModerator - why was this post flagged? I used the article headline and it is an interesting move that will affect a lot of us (we will need to consider this during naming strategies for instance).
- bryanlarsen 6y agoModerators don't flag, users do. Presumably because this is a duplicate, it's been submitted at least twice already.
- exdsq 6y agoAhh - I did look but didn't see one when I submitted it. Fair enough :)
- paulhodge 6y agoFor all the people who don't like this change, here's an analogy. Try thinking of it like you're making your bed. Admiral William H. McRaven has a terrific speech (link: https://jamesclear.com/great-speeches/make-your-bed-by-admiral-william-h-mcraven https://jamesclear.com/great-speeches/make-your-bed-by-admir... ) about making your bed, with some excellent quotes: "Making your bed will also reinforce the fact that little things in life matter. If you can't do the little things right, you will never do the big things right." "If you want to change the world, start off by making your bed." No one really thinks that renaming "master" branches is going to save the world, or really, do much of anything. I'm going to do it because it's a little thing that takes less than a day. After that I'll move on to something else.
- logicalmind 6y agoThe problem here is that the implication that all uses of the word "master" are equivalent to the combination "master/slave". So tomorrow you will not be able to make your bed in your "master" bedroom. And the day after that you won't be able to display your "master" degree on the wall. And avoid restaurants with "master" chefs.
- DangitBobby 6y agoI've already heard people I know talking about avoiding the use of the term Master Bedroom.
- warty 6y agoAsking out of good faith here. Isn't this essentially arguing the broken window theory? > The broken windows theory is a criminological theory that states that visible signs of crime, anti-social behavior, and civil disorder create an urban environment that encourages further crime and disorder, including serious crimes. The theory suggests that policing methods that target minor crimes such as vandalism, public drinking, and fare evasion help to create an atmosphere of order and lawfulness, thereby preventing more serious crimes. Perhaps there are two interpretations of this. 1. That it's a meaningless first step or 2. That it is a small but meaningful first step. To those who see (1), I think this is akin to heavily policing a neighborhood and arresting people for talking too loudly.
- dividedbyzero 6y agoEnglish isn't my native language; I've always read the "master" in "master branch" as kind of a "high-quality reference copy", similiar to its use in audio; my native language has a very similar word that doesn't have a slavery connotation, so maybe that's why, but does this usage have a slavery connotation to a native speaker that I'm missing? Is that also true with "mastering a challenge", master sculptor, etc.?
- falcolas 6y agoTo the best of my knowledge, you'd have to do a "4 degrees of separation" from git back to its ideological ancestors to find out that master was indeed referencing a "controller" with an attendant "slave" function. But, also to the best of my knowledge, it's not used in that manner in git itself; it's used as you explained it.
- majkinetor 6y agoLets make the stakes even higher: LETS BAN THE UNSPEAKABLE WORD FOREVER FROM ALL LANGUAGES, real, synthetic and imaginary ! While it exists, somebody is going to use it for something... What a great world!
- valand 6y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500093
- smitty1e 6y agoAnyone holding a Master's degree is now guilty of something.