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> Chinese society likely could censor, given the prevalence of mining in that country and their government's love of interference. What are they censoring? All

> Chinese society likely could censor, given the prevalence of mining in that country and their government's love of interference. What are they censoring? All transactions? They can only do self-harm in this manner because they must expend large amounts of electricity, perpetually, in order to keep up their censorship, and they don't know what they're censoring. This is assuming that they do indeed have the ability to 51% attack Bitcoin, and that the rest of the world is unable to use the nuclear option of changing their software clients to bypass the 51% attack. (Mining is not the ultimate arbiter of the correct chain - individuals are the ultimate arbiter via their choice of software client). A nuclear option would make all of their hardware immediately useless and eliminate any influence over Bitcoin they may have. > And various governments can and have seized bitcoin. This is a fairy tale. They can seize Bitcoin if you leave your private keys on an unencrypted machine, or if you leave your 12 word written phrase lying around at home. They can't seize your seed phrase or passphrase from your head, which can deterministically generate your bitcoin wallet on any machine. They can't seize it from an encrypted disk either, unless you reveal to them the keys to decrypt it. In the UK they may be able to force you to hand over keys for decryption or threaten you with 2 years of jail time. Not in the USA. The point was that, Bitcoin can be made unseizable because it is merely information. This is very unlike dollars, gold, or other physical commodities which can be seized by force, or threat of force, which has been done before - EO 6102. An attempt to try and emulate EO 6102 for Bitcoin would result in a very different outcome.

Nursie 6y ago
A country with a majority of miners can censor transactions from addresses it chooses to blacklist. Just as miners can choose to include transactions with fees they like, so can they exclude transactions from addresses they are under pressure to exclude. Authorities in more countries than the UK have seized bitcoin. You make the classic mistake of looking at where the system is hardest and declaring it secure, instead of looking at where it is softest, the user and their systems. They can't seize fiat if they don't know where I buried it either. Bitcoin is no more secure than that. Like I said, these are fairy tales you tell yourself about security.
- sparkie 6y ago
  > They can't seize fiat if they don't know where I buried it either. Bitcoin is no more secure than that. They don't need to seize fiat because they can just print it. They can't print Bitcoin. And you are right in regards to users being the weak point. Anybody who genuinely cares for the security of their money will use a brain wallet, or at least a 24-word seed phrase coupled with a brain-passphrase. The latter technique can be used to create "decoys". You can use the same 24-word seed with multiple passphrases, with each being a distinct wallet. If you keep a small amount in the wallet with no passphrase, it may appear to anybody who seizes your 24-words that you only have a small amount of money - but unless they can torture all of your passphrases out of you, they will not necessarily be able to seize all of your money. And since they cannot know how many copies of your 24-word phrase you have made, they cannot know for sure that seizing the copies they find will prevent you from accessing your coins.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    Yep, that's how everyone wants to spend their time and effort these days, in an age of pervasive, easy and free banking... memorizing multiple seed phrases so their anti-state opsec is up to scratch. Better pray you don't screw up on page 63, subsection 5 of the "Big book of keeping your bitcoins safe" or whoops! There go your life savings with no recourse. Do you coiners ever step back and listen to yourselves?
    - sparkie 6y ago
      Banking isn't as pervasive as you think. There are millions unbanked in the USA. Globally, billions. The level of OpSec suggested is a necessary minimum against an equivalent of EO6102 whereby the government would attempt to seize your bitcoin, presumably so it can issue its own fractionally backed alternative, purporting to be equivalent in value. Fortunately there's a case in recent history which people are all to familiar with and unlikely to fall for the same trick again. Nobody is going to trade in their bitcoin for another government shitcoin, unless they are forced. If they don't know you have it, and the only place it is stored is in your head, then they can't seize it, and they have no probable cause to commit violence against you. Personally, I couldn't care less what everyone else does. I only care that my own bitcoin are safe. I'll happily share my knowledge so that other people can secure their money too, but if they don't care, I can't hold their hands for them. Pretty sure people will take an interest when the dollar begins to hyperinflate and their 401k becomes worthless. I'm not sure where you get the impression that the dollar is safe. It's an experimental currency which has been around less than 50 years, and over that time it looks less and less likely to have a long term survival.

Nursie 6y ago

A country with a majority of miners can censor transactions from addresses it chooses to blacklist. Just as miners can choose to include transactions with fees they like, so can they exclude transactions from addresses they are under pressure to exclude. Authorities in more countries than the UK have seized bitcoin. You make the classic mistake of looking at where the system is hardest and declaring it secure, instead of looking at where it is softest, the user and their systems. They can't seize fiat if they don't know where I buried it either. Bitcoin is no more secure than that. Like I said, these are fairy tales you tell yourself about security.

sparkie 6y ago
> They can't seize fiat if they don't know where I buried it either. Bitcoin is no more secure than that. They don't need to seize fiat because they can just print it. They can't print Bitcoin. And you are right in regards to users being the weak point. Anybody who genuinely cares for the security of their money will use a brain wallet, or at least a 24-word seed phrase coupled with a brain-passphrase. The latter technique can be used to create "decoys". You can use the same 24-word seed with multiple passphrases, with each being a distinct wallet. If you keep a small amount in the wallet with no passphrase, it may appear to anybody who seizes your 24-words that you only have a small amount of money - but unless they can torture all of your passphrases out of you, they will not necessarily be able to seize all of your money. And since they cannot know how many copies of your 24-word phrase you have made, they cannot know for sure that seizing the copies they find will prevent you from accessing your coins.
- Nursie 6y ago
  Yep, that's how everyone wants to spend their time and effort these days, in an age of pervasive, easy and free banking... memorizing multiple seed phrases so their anti-state opsec is up to scratch. Better pray you don't screw up on page 63, subsection 5 of the "Big book of keeping your bitcoins safe" or whoops! There go your life savings with no recourse. Do you coiners ever step back and listen to yourselves?
  - sparkie 6y ago
    Banking isn't as pervasive as you think. There are millions unbanked in the USA. Globally, billions. The level of OpSec suggested is a necessary minimum against an equivalent of EO6102 whereby the government would attempt to seize your bitcoin, presumably so it can issue its own fractionally backed alternative, purporting to be equivalent in value. Fortunately there's a case in recent history which people are all to familiar with and unlikely to fall for the same trick again. Nobody is going to trade in their bitcoin for another government shitcoin, unless they are forced. If they don't know you have it, and the only place it is stored is in your head, then they can't seize it, and they have no probable cause to commit violence against you. Personally, I couldn't care less what everyone else does. I only care that my own bitcoin are safe. I'll happily share my knowledge so that other people can secure their money too, but if they don't care, I can't hold their hands for them. Pretty sure people will take an interest when the dollar begins to hyperinflate and their 401k becomes worthless. I'm not sure where you get the impression that the dollar is safe. It's an experimental currency which has been around less than 50 years, and over that time it looks less and less likely to have a long term survival.