7 ms·

Corporations are people. If they don't act ethically, we can't expect people to act ethically. Ending a contract with an agency that runs concentration camps i

by dsr_ 6y ago

Corporations are people. If they don't act ethically, we can't expect people to act ethically. Ending a contract with an agency that runs concentration camps is good. Better, though, is to not accept any contracts with any government that runs concentration camps. Small steps are good. Big steps are better. PS: great fear from all paying customers that run concentration camps that an internet mob could separate them from their code at any time -- sounds like a good policy to me. Not as good as "Don't be evil", but reasonably close.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
Your choice of language by saying "concentration camps" is unproductively hyperbolic and reminiscent of Nazis killing Jews in WW2. People found to have been here illegally are being kept in detention centers until deportation or trial. Nobody is getting gassed or burned in ovens.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  Note that there is a distinction — albeit a blurry one — between concentration camps [0] and extermination camps [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp
  - toasterlovin 6y ago
    In the U.S. context, concentration camp is used almost exclusively to refer to the extermination camps run by Nazis in World War II. I know not everyone on here is American, but that bit of information is useful for understanding why so many people make the association between concentration camps and the extermination of Jews in WWII. And it also explains why it is disingenuous of Americans to state that the US government is running concentration camps; it is technically correct according to the dictionary definition, but it is not correct according to lay usage in the United States.
    - filleduchaos 6y ago
      That's a very roundabout way to say "Americans have a comfortably whitewashed, frankly ignorant version of reality and everybody else should walk on eggshells to help them maintain it". Concentration camps were not solely the purview of the Nazis, and already had quite the history before they even came on the scene. In fact, while we're on the topic of World War II, the US government held people of Japanese decent in concentration camps during that war - which perhaps partly explains there's such an aggressive effort to make those camps a "Nazi thing". The rest of the world doesn't have any obligation to help you hide from facing and interrogating your own history.
      - toasterlovin 6y ago
        FWIW, I think you're being needlessly antagonistic. I'm trying to help the misunderstanding between Europeans and Americans on this issue (and leveling criticism against people using the term in a certain way in the American context—ICE is an American government agency, after all). Different cultures use words to mean different things. And I can tell you that, in the American context, concentration camp = Nazis killing Jews and internment camp = Americans putting Japanese Americans in camps. However you think it should be, that's the way things are on the ground here. As a result, calling whatever ICE is doing "concentration camps" doesn't make sense in the American context, unless maybe you're an academic or specialist speaking to there academics or specialists. And it's actually worse than "doesn't make sense in the American context", since it makes people who are only familiar with the American understanding of the term think that you are a deranged ideologue. And that's bad for discourse and finding a shared understanding, which I think we can all agree is a good thing.
        greycol 6y ago
        But does the phrase internment camp actually bring to mind abuses such as denying children hygiene supplies such as toothbrushes or basic necessities like blankets in an American reader? The separation of families? The disappearance of children? If internment camp does not convey that then I think using a technically correct term such as concentration camp to ensure that people pay attention to these abuses is not just technically correct it actually conveys that this is more than "just" an internment camp. If Americans do generally associate internment camp with that then fair enough call them internment camps in general conversation.
- acbart 6y ago
  Which part of the definition do you take issue with in this context? > Concentration Camps: A place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard —used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners
- Drakim 6y ago
  He is using the correct definition of concentration camp, you are the one in error. Concentration camps have existed outside Nazi Germany. Just because that was the most horrible instance doesn't mean that other instances stopped being "concentration camps" just like how a particularly horrible murder doesn't make a less violent murder into a non-murder. https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    The colloquial definition of the term is different from the technical definition, but they don't even meet the technical definition. According to your definition, a concentration camp is an "internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment.." People of certain minority groups aren't being rounded up. Illegal immigrants are being rounded up, regardless of race or nationality. I'm not saying whether that's right or wrong, I'm just saying that calling them concentration camps is hyperbolic and uproductive.
    - Drakim 6y ago
      Illegal immigrants in the US are most certainly a minority group. It's not hyperbolic and unproductive, it's the plain truth, just like the Japanese concentration camps during WW2.
      - oh_sigh 6y ago
        Criminals are also a minority group that are concentrated into prisons. Is that wrong too?
        dsr_ 6y ago
        Criminals are not a "minority group". Due process is the method that a society uses to determine whether people should be punished. The concentration camps under discussion do not hold people who have been adjudicated and condemned; they hold people who have been accused.
- intarga 6y ago
  "Concentration camp" as a term pre-dates the Nazis, and has a specific meaning, which does apply here. >A camp where persons are confined, usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group the government has identified as suspect. I would also note that the term does not apply to places where people in Nazi Germany were gassed or cremated, those have a separate term: death camps.
- abtinf 6y ago
  Merriam-Webster definition of concentration camp: “a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard —used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners” Japanese internment camps from WW2 easily meet that definition. I think immigration detention centers easily meet that definition too: they hold large numbers of individuals whose only crime is being “the other”.
  - google234123 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure that's it's criminal in every country on earth to violate the immigration laws of that country
    - gerbal 6y ago
      And if the laws of your country are unjust?
      - google234123 6y ago
        Get a majority to vote in politicians to change them. If your goal is open borders then you will probably have a tough time.
    - IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
      No. And it almost isn't in the US: "Being illegally present in the U.S. has always been a civil, not criminal, violation of the INA[Immigration and Naturalization Act]" "Criminal violations of the INA, on the other hand, include felonies and misdemeanors and are prosecuted in federal district courts. These types of violations include the bringing in and harboring of certain undocumented aliens, aliens (INA §275), ..." As can already be deduced from the above, illegal entry is a misdemeanor. Only the bringing in, harbouring, and certain specific aggravation conditions raise it to a felony. (From https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33351.pdf https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33351.pdf)
zaroth 6y ago
Regardless of whether you are technically correct in referring to ICE as running concentration camps (IMO you are grossly mistaken), statements like these simply act to shut down debate on a topic and suck the air out of the conversation. They should be avoided entirely, and flagged when they occur. I've made a similar mistaken before, and been called out on it.
0-O-0 6y ago
> Ending a contract with an agency that runs concentration camps is good. If ending contract with an agency that runs concentration camp has any meaningful impact on said agency, the only thing you achieve is making their service a bit worse and life of people in their custody a bit miserable. That's the opposite of good, you're just hurting people you supposedly care about.
- dsr_ 6y ago
  Your logic system states that doing business with evil is good. No, I don't think that works.
  - 0-O-0 6y ago
    My logic system consider both direct and indirect consequences of my actions, yours, apparently, does not. But hey, if you optimise for immediate feeling of righteousness and moments of back-patting, there is no reason to overcomplicate things.

by dsr_ 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago

Your choice of language by saying "concentration camps" is unproductively hyperbolic and reminiscent of Nazis killing Jews in WW2. People found to have been here illegally are being kept in detention centers until deportation or trial. Nobody is getting gassed or burned in ovens.

jakelazaroff 6y ago
Note that there is a distinction — albeit a blurry one — between concentration camps [0] and extermination camps [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp
- toasterlovin 6y ago
  In the U.S. context, concentration camp is used almost exclusively to refer to the extermination camps run by Nazis in World War II. I know not everyone on here is American, but that bit of information is useful for understanding why so many people make the association between concentration camps and the extermination of Jews in WWII. And it also explains why it is disingenuous of Americans to state that the US government is running concentration camps; it is technically correct according to the dictionary definition, but it is not correct according to lay usage in the United States.
  - filleduchaos 6y ago
    That's a very roundabout way to say "Americans have a comfortably whitewashed, frankly ignorant version of reality and everybody else should walk on eggshells to help them maintain it". Concentration camps were not solely the purview of the Nazis, and already had quite the history before they even came on the scene. In fact, while we're on the topic of World War II, the US government held people of Japanese decent in concentration camps during that war - which perhaps partly explains there's such an aggressive effort to make those camps a "Nazi thing". The rest of the world doesn't have any obligation to help you hide from facing and interrogating your own history.
    - toasterlovin 6y ago
      FWIW, I think you're being needlessly antagonistic. I'm trying to help the misunderstanding between Europeans and Americans on this issue (and leveling criticism against people using the term in a certain way in the American context—ICE is an American government agency, after all). Different cultures use words to mean different things. And I can tell you that, in the American context, concentration camp = Nazis killing Jews and internment camp = Americans putting Japanese Americans in camps. However you think it should be, that's the way things are on the ground here. As a result, calling whatever ICE is doing "concentration camps" doesn't make sense in the American context, unless maybe you're an academic or specialist speaking to there academics or specialists. And it's actually worse than "doesn't make sense in the American context", since it makes people who are only familiar with the American understanding of the term think that you are a deranged ideologue. And that's bad for discourse and finding a shared understanding, which I think we can all agree is a good thing.
      - greycol 6y ago
        But does the phrase internment camp actually bring to mind abuses such as denying children hygiene supplies such as toothbrushes or basic necessities like blankets in an American reader? The separation of families? The disappearance of children? If internment camp does not convey that then I think using a technically correct term such as concentration camp to ensure that people pay attention to these abuses is not just technically correct it actually conveys that this is more than "just" an internment camp. If Americans do generally associate internment camp with that then fair enough call them internment camps in general conversation.
acbart 6y ago
Which part of the definition do you take issue with in this context? > Concentration Camps: A place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard —used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners
Drakim 6y ago
He is using the correct definition of concentration camp, you are the one in error. Concentration camps have existed outside Nazi Germany. Just because that was the most horrible instance doesn't mean that other instances stopped being "concentration camps" just like how a particularly horrible murder doesn't make a less violent murder into a non-murder. https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  The colloquial definition of the term is different from the technical definition, but they don't even meet the technical definition. According to your definition, a concentration camp is an "internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment.." People of certain minority groups aren't being rounded up. Illegal immigrants are being rounded up, regardless of race or nationality. I'm not saying whether that's right or wrong, I'm just saying that calling them concentration camps is hyperbolic and uproductive.
  - Drakim 6y ago
    Illegal immigrants in the US are most certainly a minority group. It's not hyperbolic and unproductive, it's the plain truth, just like the Japanese concentration camps during WW2.
    - oh_sigh 6y ago
      Criminals are also a minority group that are concentrated into prisons. Is that wrong too?
      - dsr_ 6y ago
        Criminals are not a "minority group". Due process is the method that a society uses to determine whether people should be punished. The concentration camps under discussion do not hold people who have been adjudicated and condemned; they hold people who have been accused.
intarga 6y ago
"Concentration camp" as a term pre-dates the Nazis, and has a specific meaning, which does apply here. >A camp where persons are confined, usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group the government has identified as suspect. I would also note that the term does not apply to places where people in Nazi Germany were gassed or cremated, those have a separate term: death camps.
abtinf 6y ago
Merriam-Webster definition of concentration camp: “a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard —used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners” Japanese internment camps from WW2 easily meet that definition. I think immigration detention centers easily meet that definition too: they hold large numbers of individuals whose only crime is being “the other”.
- google234123 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure that's it's criminal in every country on earth to violate the immigration laws of that country
  - gerbal 6y ago
    And if the laws of your country are unjust?
    - google234123 6y ago
      Get a majority to vote in politicians to change them. If your goal is open borders then you will probably have a tough time.
  - IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
    No. And it almost isn't in the US: "Being illegally present in the U.S. has always been a civil, not criminal, violation of the INA[Immigration and Naturalization Act]" "Criminal violations of the INA, on the other hand, include felonies and misdemeanors and are prosecuted in federal district courts. These types of violations include the bringing in and harboring of certain undocumented aliens, aliens (INA §275), ..." As can already be deduced from the above, illegal entry is a misdemeanor. Only the bringing in, harbouring, and certain specific aggravation conditions raise it to a felony. (From https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33351.pdf https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33351.pdf)

zaroth 6y ago

Regardless of whether you are technically correct in referring to ICE as running concentration camps (IMO you are grossly mistaken), statements like these simply act to shut down debate on a topic and suck the air out of the conversation. They should be avoided entirely, and flagged when they occur. I've made a similar mistaken before, and been called out on it.

0-O-0 6y ago

> Ending a contract with an agency that runs concentration camps is good. If ending contract with an agency that runs concentration camp has any meaningful impact on said agency, the only thing you achieve is making their service a bit worse and life of people in their custody a bit miserable. That's the opposite of good, you're just hurting people you supposedly care about.

dsr_ 6y ago
Your logic system states that doing business with evil is good. No, I don't think that works.
- 0-O-0 6y ago
  My logic system consider both direct and indirect consequences of my actions, yours, apparently, does not. But hey, if you optimise for immediate feeling of righteousness and moments of back-patting, there is no reason to overcomplicate things.