3 ms·

Whilst in theory, I'm neutral to the change on ethical grounds, I think in practice it will make things very confusing. Master/Slave is such an established pai

Whilst in theory, I'm neutral to the change on ethical grounds, I think in practice it will make things very confusing. Master/Slave is such an established pair of terms in tech that they have a loaded meaning as soon as you see them. If I see 'Master' and 'Slave' on an old hard disk, I know what that is. If I see "Configure one device to the master setting and the rest to slave.", I get a understanding of the relationship for free. I don't think we will get that with replacement terms, at least not in the short term, and we're just setting ourselves up for confusion.

zikzak 6y ago
> "Main" & "Secondary" has been proposed, enabling reusable interpretation of the remaining acronym labels for connecting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)#Terminology_concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)#Term...
gimboland 6y ago
Right. And the fact that you don't find those terms offensive is part of your privilege. You're being invited to step outside of yourself and consider that for some people, it's not as clear-cut / apolitical as it is for you.
- derision 6y ago
  Every non-white person I've seen commenting on this change has expressed they couldn't care less and do not give a second thought to these naming conventions. Maybe we should let their voices be heard rather than continue to try to speak for them?
  - zzo38computer 6y ago
    I think that is a valid point. While I have not asked people about this myself, the article on All The Tropes wiki about "Political Correctness Gone Mad" has examples of people trying to change things to avoid offending people, resulting in the people they are trying to avoid offending complaining about it.
  - sebazzz 6y ago
    It is the few that speak the loudest and will _never_ be happy, no matter what. There will always be something that needs to be changed.
  - gimboland 6y ago
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; my experience differs from yours.
- Jetroid 6y ago
  Maybe it is offending people, maybe it isn't. I hold no doubt that the concept or slavery is offensive, but I haven't actually seen an argument from a PoC saying that it offends them. Nobody alive today was a slave during the time that it was legal in USA/UK, etc. I'd hold a very different view if we were having this discussion in the 1800s. As I said, I haven't actually seen any significant outcry about this from the relevant communities, for lack of a better term. My argument goes more along the lines that changing something like this can cause more harm than good in some cases, given that we have years of established documents using these definitions. As an example from science, the reason that the direction of conventional current goes opposite to the flow of electrons is because we found out new information, but decided it was too costly to change. If we remove the Master/Slave terminology from everything new effective today, then in 20 years, will a new developer know that 'Main/Secondary' in their 2021 datasheet is referring to the same thing as 'Master/Slave' from their 1991 datasheet? Possibly, but also maybe not. A smart person could infer this and another could search it, but there is still potential for confusion.
  - zikzak 6y ago
    I am no expert, but to me the debate is the same as switching from gendered pronouns to saying "they". I try not to use "he" or "she" in my documentation now. I say "they" or "the user". I don't do this because I have dyed hair and a nose ring. I do it because it is an incredibly easy to do and removes gender from the docs. That's it. Gender adds no information in technical docs most of the time and has the potential to bias information. I don't even care that much about this issue but it is just easy to do. No one is confused by this or even mentions it. So, say we start using main and secondary. Someone smart enough to be reading a datasheet will probably figure this out. Right? I work in several different programming languages in any given week (SQL, C#, JavaScript, various data formats, and so on). I don't get confused when the name of a data type is a little different between these. I am not trying to be rude or mean, I am just saying we can change terms. I mean, my god, we changed from Imperial to Metric while I was in elementary school. We changed an entire system of weights and measures for an entire country (Canada). That was a big deal. Going from master/slave to main/secondary (or whatever) is not a big deal. It's like "rule of thumb". I no longer use this phrase. Most people have no idea that this is based on how a stick a man may beat his wife with must be no thicker than the size of his thumb. But some people do. I do. And, yeah, I am sure this will be a "turns out" where a cabal of feminists spread this rumour to make white men feel bad, but I don't care. I don't say it any more. I figured out a new way to talk about a general guideline that is widely applicable and simple. It's not a big deal.

zikzak 6y ago

> "Main" & "Secondary" has been proposed, enabling reusable interpretation of the remaining acronym labels for connecting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)#Terminology_concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)#Term...

gimboland 6y ago

Right. And the fact that you don't find those terms offensive is part of your privilege. You're being invited to step outside of yourself and consider that for some people, it's not as clear-cut / apolitical as it is for you.

derision 6y ago
Every non-white person I've seen commenting on this change has expressed they couldn't care less and do not give a second thought to these naming conventions. Maybe we should let their voices be heard rather than continue to try to speak for them?
- zzo38computer 6y ago
  I think that is a valid point. While I have not asked people about this myself, the article on All The Tropes wiki about "Political Correctness Gone Mad" has examples of people trying to change things to avoid offending people, resulting in the people they are trying to avoid offending complaining about it.
- sebazzz 6y ago
  It is the few that speak the loudest and will _never_ be happy, no matter what. There will always be something that needs to be changed.
- gimboland 6y ago
  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; my experience differs from yours.
Jetroid 6y ago
Maybe it is offending people, maybe it isn't. I hold no doubt that the concept or slavery is offensive, but I haven't actually seen an argument from a PoC saying that it offends them. Nobody alive today was a slave during the time that it was legal in USA/UK, etc. I'd hold a very different view if we were having this discussion in the 1800s. As I said, I haven't actually seen any significant outcry about this from the relevant communities, for lack of a better term. My argument goes more along the lines that changing something like this can cause more harm than good in some cases, given that we have years of established documents using these definitions. As an example from science, the reason that the direction of conventional current goes opposite to the flow of electrons is because we found out new information, but decided it was too costly to change. If we remove the Master/Slave terminology from everything new effective today, then in 20 years, will a new developer know that 'Main/Secondary' in their 2021 datasheet is referring to the same thing as 'Master/Slave' from their 1991 datasheet? Possibly, but also maybe not. A smart person could infer this and another could search it, but there is still potential for confusion.
- zikzak 6y ago
  I am no expert, but to me the debate is the same as switching from gendered pronouns to saying "they". I try not to use "he" or "she" in my documentation now. I say "they" or "the user". I don't do this because I have dyed hair and a nose ring. I do it because it is an incredibly easy to do and removes gender from the docs. That's it. Gender adds no information in technical docs most of the time and has the potential to bias information. I don't even care that much about this issue but it is just easy to do. No one is confused by this or even mentions it. So, say we start using main and secondary. Someone smart enough to be reading a datasheet will probably figure this out. Right? I work in several different programming languages in any given week (SQL, C#, JavaScript, various data formats, and so on). I don't get confused when the name of a data type is a little different between these. I am not trying to be rude or mean, I am just saying we can change terms. I mean, my god, we changed from Imperial to Metric while I was in elementary school. We changed an entire system of weights and measures for an entire country (Canada). That was a big deal. Going from master/slave to main/secondary (or whatever) is not a big deal. It's like "rule of thumb". I no longer use this phrase. Most people have no idea that this is based on how a stick a man may beat his wife with must be no thicker than the size of his thumb. But some people do. I do. And, yeah, I am sure this will be a "turns out" where a cabal of feminists spread this rumour to make white men feel bad, but I don't care. I don't say it any more. I figured out a new way to talk about a general guideline that is widely applicable and simple. It's not a big deal.