6 ms·

37signals to Drop IE6 Support

77 points by bdotdub 18y ago

ajross 18y ago
I think this says more about their customer base than it does about the state of IE6 in the market as a whole. There are lots of IE6 users still out there, many of whom are using corporate installations that they can't upgrade. If 37signals (did I spell it right?) doesn't need that market, more power to them. But the reality is that better browsers just aren't as simple as providing a list of "click here" installation links.
- bdotdub 18y ago
  I agree. They customer base (I think) is mostly small businesses, which have the luxury of upgrading browsers. Any effort to push the web forward (away from old browsers) gets a thumbs up in my book.
- aasarava 18y ago
  On the consumer Internet sites I have worked on in the past year, the stats have shown roughly 30% of users still have IE6. For the services that 37Signals provides, it's quite likely that this drops to just a few percent -- after all, their customers are tech-savvy enough to be using Firefox, Safari, and IE7. And when you've got just a few percent of IE6 users, it just doesn't make good financial sense to spend a disproportionate amount of time dealing with IE6's inane bugs.
- webwright 18y ago
  Agreed on the customer-base point. I'd guess their ie6 visitors are <3% - and I'd wager making stuff work for ie6 requires a disproportionate amount of their time, which could be spent serving the majority more effectively. As a comparison, RescueTime's ie6 visits weighed in at about 3.7% over the last 30 days.
  - bdotdub 18y ago
    That's surprising (but great news!) that your IE6 visitors are that low. I agree, I'd imagine they have comparable numbers to make a decision like this. It'd be interesting info to know (anyone from 37signals out there? ;)
    - webwright 18y ago
      One of the 280Slides guys said their IE6 # was 6% or so, as another data point.
- GavinB 18y ago
  Firefox 3 actually installs in some locked-down corporate networks. I was able to install FF3 (just not in /program files/), even though I can't install much else--including upgrading flash! I can only assume that FF3 was cleverly designed to be installable more widely than most other programs, which refuse to install.
volida 18y ago
say that to mainstream users!
dzohrob 18y ago
Many sources [1] show that IE6 still has more global usage than IE7. Though I'm sure 37signals' userbase is not represented well by global data, turning away users of perhaps the most popular version of the most popular browser is an interesting move. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers
- mikeryan 18y ago
  Where did you get that from? I clicked through the links on that page and the most recent month had this: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2008/April/browser.php http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2008/April/browser.php
  - Xichekolas 18y ago
    What is really amusing about those stats is the 77 visitors still using IE 3. I don't even have a 12 year old computer that still functions, let alone a 12 year old browser.
    - thwarted 18y ago
      No, 77 is the age of the IE3 users.
  - dzohrob 18y ago
    FWIW, the first one I clicked on was this: http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php?date=2008-05-31 http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php?date=2008-05-31 Not that it's the best source of data, but.
bprater 18y ago
God, I didn't realize IE6 hit the streets in 2001. What is it that makes corporate cultures so slow in upgrading to IE7, especially if they are locked into the Windows platform?
- jcl 18y ago
  I get the impression that many companies have internal applications that were written to be compatible with IE6... software written by employees or consultants who are no longer available. The mere act of enumerating IE7 incompatibilities in these applications (let alone fixing them) represents a development cost that some companies will put off for as long as possible.
  - xlnt 18y ago
    why can't they just let people install firefox, and use ie6 for internal apps, and firefox for external apps?
    - ph0rque 18y ago
      In some cases, because the company in question feels you shouldn't need external access at work.
      - xlnt 18y ago
        If the company doesn't allow external internet access, it isn't relevant to anyone deciding what browsers their website should support.
        ph0rque 18y ago
        Just because an employee shouldn't access the internet at such companies, doesn't mean he/she doesn't
    - arebop 18y ago
      At my Fortune 500 company, permission to use Firefox is only granted to programmers who can convincingly argue that they need it for compatibility testing on Internet-facing applications. It's IE6 for everything else. The reason is that Firefox is a security risk(!).
edw519 18y ago
Why are we making this change? IE 6 is a last-generation browser. This means that IE 6 can't provide the same web experience that modern browsers can. For example? If I didn't know any better, I'd think that this was the same old "IT B.S." that we've been listening to for 30 years. You have to upgrade for our convenience but we tell you that it's for yours. I know of many companies that don't want to pay maintenance. They say, "I don't want any upgrades and I don't want to pay for them. It works perfectly now. If I want anything to change, I'll ask for it and I'll pay for it. Why should this be any different that anything else that I own?" Is this move for the benefit of the supplier or the customer? Honestly, I've constantly see remarks that say you're lame or old fashioned if you still use IE6, but I sure would like to hear one of these posts provide some concrete data why. (And please don't say tabs or extensions, those are features many do not see a need for.)
- xlnt 18y ago
  Good points. However, the benefit of the supplier and customer can coincide. If it's easier for 37signals to make their products, they can lower prices or add extra features or add polish or something. Maybe they consider ie6 support a feature, and they think their customers will prefer some other features instead.
  - edw519 18y ago
    benefit of the supplier and customer can coincide Most customers understand this and are willing to go along for the sake of a valued supplier. If they said, "We need you to upgrade to make life easier for us to provide for you in the future," most would say OK. But when they say, "IE 6 can't provide the same web experience that modern browsers can," inquiring customers want to know what that means before they commit. My comment wasn't because I disagreed with 37signal's move, it was because they never provided any supporting data.
    - 0x44 18y ago
      One shouldn't need to include common knowledge as supporting data.
qeek 18y ago
How I wish I could do that as well.
jamesjyu 18y ago
This is just laziness. They should support IE6 until it is the minority of installs on all machines. 37signals has always extolled the mantra of usability. But, this move puts them entirely against that. You need to work within the constraints of the user, and one of them, unfortunately, is IE6.
- mikeryan 18y ago
  There tends to be a very fine line between "laziness" and "increased productivity". Having to spend umpteen hours supporting legacy browsers can be seen on both sides of that fence. From an operational perspective if they feel that this won't have too extreme an impact on their customers I think it makes a ton of sense from a productivity standpoint.
- webwright 18y ago
  Huh. So do you think it's better for most users if they can fix bugs faster, respond to support requests faster, build new products, add new features (<gasp>) etc? I think it is. And I think blowing off IE6 will allow them to server other folks better. Time is always allocated somewhere-- the time they save by giving up IE6 support can go to more constructive/forward thinking pursuits. Only 37s has access to their web stats-- if ie6 is vanishingly small within their paying userbase, it's a smart move.
- bkbleikamp 18y ago
  At some point forcing users to upgrade is to their benefit. Giving them support makes them think there is nothing wrong with using IE6 when there are better alternatives available. No one complains about IE5.5 not being supported by most sites anymore, but people still use it.
icey 18y ago
Those guys are lucky to be able to do that. Our user base is still 35% IE6.
maxklein 18y ago
You know, I do not write software for Windows 2000. They are about 10% of my market, but I don't bother testing on 2000, because I choose to focus on the XP and up market. Nobody even questions this policy or finds it controversial. Why should a website not also decide to focus on 90% of its users so that it can make a better product?
- edw519 18y ago
  Why should a website not also decide to focus on 90% of its users so that it can make a better product? Because some people just don't want to leave a dime from every dollar on the table. That's all.
  - cstejerean 18y ago
    if only the math were that simple. Chances are that focusing on 90% of the market != 10% decline in revenue.
    - edw519 18y ago
      And that's exactly why some people want every eyeball they can get. Because they don't know.
      - 0x44 18y ago
        37Signals isn't really in the "eyeballs" business.
    - DougBTX 18y ago
      If the time you save from ignoring an expensive 10% of your customers lets you grow your total market by 12%, you're into profit.
  - alex_c 18y ago
    Because some people just don't want to leave a dime from every dollar on the table. That's all. But at some point, if that dime has to come at an increase of 20% or 30% in effort, it stops being worth it.
arn 18y ago
Apple will also be dropping IE6 support in their upcoming MobileMe service. A very consumer oriented product. http://www.tuaw.com/2008/06/23/mobileme-browser-requirements-page-found/ http://www.tuaw.com/2008/06/23/mobileme-browser-requirements...
- tx 18y ago
  ... yet another island of users who wouldn't have IE6 anyway. I'd be way more impressed with either Google/Yahoo/MSN dropping IE6 - THAT would be an awesome gift for all of us.
  - arn 18y ago
    sorta. I mean the point of MobileMe is that you can access your email, calendar, etc... from any browser. But in this case, it means ie 7+. So it's not really meant for people who sit on their Mac at home perse. Also, it is aimed at iPhone users, which is a fair percentage windows users.
  - etal 18y ago
    Of those three, who do you think is most likely to jump first? Yahoo is very corporate-friendly, so I'd expect them to be the last to give up IE6 support. MSN might want to push everyone towards the latest IE version so Microsoft can finally stop supporting IE6 altogether; Google might push for Firefox, but then they might draw some antitrust criticism for that.
petercooper 18y ago
Since 37signals makes an API available for most of its services, it would be theoretically possible for someone to come along and build an alternative IE6 compatible front-end to 37signals' products. I expect, however, no-one will, demonstrating that there is no economic reason to support it.
- andreyf 18y ago
  I can't imagine such a service having good growth...
michaelneale 18y ago
Its well worded. I imagine the original drafts would have been pretty harsh on IE6 (although 2001 - that was a LOOONG time ago, to be fair).
geoffim 18y ago
I just think that it's funny that this announcement comes on the heels of the "features are a one way street" posting...not that IE6 is a feature of any kind of course.

77 points by bdotdub 18y ago

I think this says more about their customer base than it does about the state of IE6 in the market as a whole. There are lots of IE6 users still out there, many of whom are using corporate installations that they can't upgrade. If 37signals (did I spell it right?) doesn't need that market, more power to them. But the reality is that better browsers just aren't as simple as providing a list of "click here" installation links.

bdotdub 18y ago
I agree. They customer base (I think) is mostly small businesses, which have the luxury of upgrading browsers. Any effort to push the web forward (away from old browsers) gets a thumbs up in my book.
aasarava 18y ago
On the consumer Internet sites I have worked on in the past year, the stats have shown roughly 30% of users still have IE6. For the services that 37Signals provides, it's quite likely that this drops to just a few percent -- after all, their customers are tech-savvy enough to be using Firefox, Safari, and IE7. And when you've got just a few percent of IE6 users, it just doesn't make good financial sense to spend a disproportionate amount of time dealing with IE6's inane bugs.
webwright 18y ago
Agreed on the customer-base point. I'd guess their ie6 visitors are <3% - and I'd wager making stuff work for ie6 requires a disproportionate amount of their time, which could be spent serving the majority more effectively. As a comparison, RescueTime's ie6 visits weighed in at about 3.7% over the last 30 days.
- bdotdub 18y ago
  That's surprising (but great news!) that your IE6 visitors are that low. I agree, I'd imagine they have comparable numbers to make a decision like this. It'd be interesting info to know (anyone from 37signals out there? ;)
  - webwright 18y ago
    One of the 280Slides guys said their IE6 # was 6% or so, as another data point.
GavinB 18y ago
Firefox 3 actually installs in some locked-down corporate networks. I was able to install FF3 (just not in /program files/), even though I can't install much else--including upgrading flash! I can only assume that FF3 was cleverly designed to be installable more widely than most other programs, which refuse to install.

volida 18y ago

say that to mainstream users!

dzohrob 18y ago

Many sources [1] show that IE6 still has more global usage than IE7. Though I'm sure 37signals' userbase is not represented well by global data, turning away users of perhaps the most popular version of the most popular browser is an interesting move. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers

mikeryan 18y ago
Where did you get that from? I clicked through the links on that page and the most recent month had this: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2008/April/browser.php http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2008/April/browser.php
- Xichekolas 18y ago
  What is really amusing about those stats is the 77 visitors still using IE 3. I don't even have a 12 year old computer that still functions, let alone a 12 year old browser.
  - thwarted 18y ago
    No, 77 is the age of the IE3 users.
- dzohrob 18y ago
  FWIW, the first one I clicked on was this: http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php?date=2008-05-31 http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php?date=2008-05-31 Not that it's the best source of data, but.

bprater 18y ago

God, I didn't realize IE6 hit the streets in 2001. What is it that makes corporate cultures so slow in upgrading to IE7, especially if they are locked into the Windows platform?

jcl 18y ago
I get the impression that many companies have internal applications that were written to be compatible with IE6... software written by employees or consultants who are no longer available. The mere act of enumerating IE7 incompatibilities in these applications (let alone fixing them) represents a development cost that some companies will put off for as long as possible.
- xlnt 18y ago
  why can't they just let people install firefox, and use ie6 for internal apps, and firefox for external apps?
  - ph0rque 18y ago
    In some cases, because the company in question feels you shouldn't need external access at work.
    - xlnt 18y ago
      If the company doesn't allow external internet access, it isn't relevant to anyone deciding what browsers their website should support.
      - ph0rque 18y ago
        Just because an employee shouldn't access the internet at such companies, doesn't mean he/she doesn't
  - arebop 18y ago
    At my Fortune 500 company, permission to use Firefox is only granted to programmers who can convincingly argue that they need it for compatibility testing on Internet-facing applications. It's IE6 for everything else. The reason is that Firefox is a security risk(!).

edw519 18y ago

Why are we making this change? IE 6 is a last-generation browser. This means that IE 6 can't provide the same web experience that modern browsers can. For example? If I didn't know any better, I'd think that this was the same old "IT B.S." that we've been listening to for 30 years. You have to upgrade for our convenience but we tell you that it's for yours. I know of many companies that don't want to pay maintenance. They say, "I don't want any upgrades and I don't want to pay for them. It works perfectly now. If I want anything to change, I'll ask for it and I'll pay for it. Why should this be any different that anything else that I own?" Is this move for the benefit of the supplier or the customer? Honestly, I've constantly see remarks that say you're lame or old fashioned if you still use IE6, but I sure would like to hear one of these posts provide some concrete data why. (And please don't say tabs or extensions, those are features many do not see a need for.)

xlnt 18y ago
Good points. However, the benefit of the supplier and customer can coincide. If it's easier for 37signals to make their products, they can lower prices or add extra features or add polish or something. Maybe they consider ie6 support a feature, and they think their customers will prefer some other features instead.
- edw519 18y ago
  benefit of the supplier and customer can coincide Most customers understand this and are willing to go along for the sake of a valued supplier. If they said, "We need you to upgrade to make life easier for us to provide for you in the future," most would say OK. But when they say, "IE 6 can't provide the same web experience that modern browsers can," inquiring customers want to know what that means before they commit. My comment wasn't because I disagreed with 37signal's move, it was because they never provided any supporting data.
  - 0x44 18y ago
    One shouldn't need to include common knowledge as supporting data.

qeek 18y ago

How I wish I could do that as well.

jamesjyu 18y ago

This is just laziness. They should support IE6 until it is the minority of installs on all machines. 37signals has always extolled the mantra of usability. But, this move puts them entirely against that. You need to work within the constraints of the user, and one of them, unfortunately, is IE6.

mikeryan 18y ago
There tends to be a very fine line between "laziness" and "increased productivity". Having to spend umpteen hours supporting legacy browsers can be seen on both sides of that fence. From an operational perspective if they feel that this won't have too extreme an impact on their customers I think it makes a ton of sense from a productivity standpoint.
webwright 18y ago
Huh. So do you think it's better for most users if they can fix bugs faster, respond to support requests faster, build new products, add new features (<gasp>) etc? I think it is. And I think blowing off IE6 will allow them to server other folks better. Time is always allocated somewhere-- the time they save by giving up IE6 support can go to more constructive/forward thinking pursuits. Only 37s has access to their web stats-- if ie6 is vanishingly small within their paying userbase, it's a smart move.
bkbleikamp 18y ago
At some point forcing users to upgrade is to their benefit. Giving them support makes them think there is nothing wrong with using IE6 when there are better alternatives available. No one complains about IE5.5 not being supported by most sites anymore, but people still use it.

icey 18y ago

Those guys are lucky to be able to do that. Our user base is still 35% IE6.

maxklein 18y ago

You know, I do not write software for Windows 2000. They are about 10% of my market, but I don't bother testing on 2000, because I choose to focus on the XP and up market. Nobody even questions this policy or finds it controversial. Why should a website not also decide to focus on 90% of its users so that it can make a better product?

edw519 18y ago
Why should a website not also decide to focus on 90% of its users so that it can make a better product? Because some people just don't want to leave a dime from every dollar on the table. That's all.
- cstejerean 18y ago
  if only the math were that simple. Chances are that focusing on 90% of the market != 10% decline in revenue.
  - edw519 18y ago
    And that's exactly why some people want every eyeball they can get. Because they don't know.
    - 0x44 18y ago
      37Signals isn't really in the "eyeballs" business.
  - DougBTX 18y ago
    If the time you save from ignoring an expensive 10% of your customers lets you grow your total market by 12%, you're into profit.
- alex_c 18y ago
  Because some people just don't want to leave a dime from every dollar on the table. That's all. But at some point, if that dime has to come at an increase of 20% or 30% in effort, it stops being worth it.

arn 18y ago

Apple will also be dropping IE6 support in their upcoming MobileMe service. A very consumer oriented product. http://www.tuaw.com/2008/06/23/mobileme-browser-requirements-page-found/ http://www.tuaw.com/2008/06/23/mobileme-browser-requirements...

tx 18y ago
... yet another island of users who wouldn't have IE6 anyway. I'd be way more impressed with either Google/Yahoo/MSN dropping IE6 - THAT would be an awesome gift for all of us.
- arn 18y ago
  sorta. I mean the point of MobileMe is that you can access your email, calendar, etc... from any browser. But in this case, it means ie 7+. So it's not really meant for people who sit on their Mac at home perse. Also, it is aimed at iPhone users, which is a fair percentage windows users.
- etal 18y ago
  Of those three, who do you think is most likely to jump first? Yahoo is very corporate-friendly, so I'd expect them to be the last to give up IE6 support. MSN might want to push everyone towards the latest IE version so Microsoft can finally stop supporting IE6 altogether; Google might push for Firefox, but then they might draw some antitrust criticism for that.

petercooper 18y ago

Since 37signals makes an API available for most of its services, it would be theoretically possible for someone to come along and build an alternative IE6 compatible front-end to 37signals' products. I expect, however, no-one will, demonstrating that there is no economic reason to support it.

andreyf 18y ago
I can't imagine such a service having good growth...

michaelneale 18y ago

Its well worded. I imagine the original drafts would have been pretty harsh on IE6 (although 2001 - that was a LOOONG time ago, to be fair).

geoffim 18y ago

I just think that it's funny that this announcement comes on the heels of the "features are a one way street" posting...not that IE6 is a feature of any kind of course.