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>> Were developers really caught off guard that they shouldn’t be writing 32 bit software in 2017? Probably not, but end users shouldn't have to suffer because

>> Were developers really caught off guard that they shouldn’t be writing 32 bit software in 2017? Probably not, but end users shouldn't have to suffer because they bought software from bad developers. One reason why IE still ships with Windows is because a lot of companies are still using old enterprise software that never got updated for the modern web.

scarface74 6y ago
Have you read Raymond Chen's MS blog about all of the hacks that are in Windows just to keep backwards compatibility with one bad app? Maintaining backwards compatibility forever increases the security vulnerability to footprint, the testing surface for regressions, code size etc. Have you seen how badly Windows runs in low resource environments like the low end Surface line? IE and the collapse of MS's browser market share is not exactly a shining example of how to successfully handle a product.
- xnyan 6y ago
  You’re sort of picking the worst example, the alternate is the fact that Windows has maintained a gargantuan desktop OS market share for decades in large part because of their dedication to application compatibility.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Having an overwhelmingly market share in a declining low profit margin business is the definition of a Pyrrhic victory. No one cares about PCs as a business anymore.
    - slantyyz 6y ago
      >> No one cares about PCs as a business anymore. Is that true? While I get that this isn't scientific proof, there seem to be a lot of Youtubers out there making a decent living off videos of building and reviewing PCs and Macs. Linus Tech Tips has >11M subscribers, Dave2D has 2.7M subscribers, etc.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        Have you looked at the profits of every single PC maker? It’s a low margin business. Making money off of YT videos is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
        slantyyz 6y ago
        > Making money off of YT videos is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. You said "No one cares about PCs as a business anymore." The popularity of YT videos on new laptops, pcs, etc. seems to suggest that at a non-zero number of people (i.e., greater than "No one") still care about PCs.
        scarface74 6y ago
        If you want to be pedantic - a few Youtube videos as a business as evidence of a thriving market is about like showing a record store selling vinyl as evidence of a resurgence.
        slantyyz 6y ago
        Those channels have millions of subscribers and even more views. Maybe it's insignificant in your view, and that's fine.
        nojito 6y ago
        YouTube is tiny. Even the largest YouTube star will struggle to get noticed in public.
    - arvinsim 6y ago
      I lump together "PCs are doomed" in the same category as "Apple is doomed". Both are not even remotely true.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        PCs aren’t doomed no more than Android devices. They are just both a low margin commoditized product that compete on price.
        ksec 6y ago
        Being a low margin business does not equate to no one cares about PC business any more.
        scarface74 6y ago
        From a business standpoint, IBM abandoned it years ago and HP has gone back and forth between whether it wants to keep their PC unit for years. Almost all of Apple’s former competitors are either dead or worth nothing. From a business standpoint, Apple’s strategy seemed to have been the right one. Apple probably makes more on computer sells than any one else and they only make up 10% of Apple’s revenue. So HN posters can complain about Apple’s strategy until the cows come home, but the market has decided it was the right one.
- slantyyz 6y ago
  I didn't say there were not any tradeoffs made to support those users with legacy systems. What do you define as a low end Surface line on x86? I have a Surface Pro 1 that I still use to this day. I also have a GPD Win handheld that's running an Atom processor that is surprisingly good for what it is. I also have some older Atom based stick PCs that are pretty bad (only 2GB RAM), but those are designed for signage and kiosks, for which they are... adequate.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    I see you are ignoring the low cost Surface computers that are meant to compete on price with the $329 10.2 inch iPad or even the $499 iPad Air. The iPads can actually run well with 2GB of RAM. Microsoft Office is a much better experience on an iPad without a keyboard than any hardware that Apple sells.
    - slantyyz 6y ago
      The Atom-based Surfaces with the Atom x7-8700 - that's the same processor I have in my GPD-Win. It's more than usable for light users. Heck, its built-in GPU outperforms the one in my Surface Pro. While x86 Surface (not-pro) might have been "meant" to compete on price with iPads, I don't think that's how it worked out. I tend to think most of the people who will buy a low end x86 Surface want/need Windows in the first place. It's not a substitute for an iPad.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        Have you compared the performance of the atom based Surface to the cheapest iPad?
        slantyyz 6y ago
        That's an apples and oranges test, and the performance difference doesn't matter. They're for different target markets. I don't think anyone in their right mind considers a Surface as an alternative to an iPad. Just because they have similar form factors doesn't mean they're substitutes for one another. The things I run on my atom based handheld are only available on Windows.
svaha1728 6y ago
IE is not a good example. As someone who had to support legacy C++ bloat for years, I thought Apple’s move was a good one.

scarface74 6y ago

Have you read Raymond Chen's MS blog about all of the hacks that are in Windows just to keep backwards compatibility with one bad app? Maintaining backwards compatibility forever increases the security vulnerability to footprint, the testing surface for regressions, code size etc. Have you seen how badly Windows runs in low resource environments like the low end Surface line? IE and the collapse of MS's browser market share is not exactly a shining example of how to successfully handle a product.

xnyan 6y ago
You’re sort of picking the worst example, the alternate is the fact that Windows has maintained a gargantuan desktop OS market share for decades in large part because of their dedication to application compatibility.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Having an overwhelmingly market share in a declining low profit margin business is the definition of a Pyrrhic victory. No one cares about PCs as a business anymore.
  - slantyyz 6y ago
    >> No one cares about PCs as a business anymore. Is that true? While I get that this isn't scientific proof, there seem to be a lot of Youtubers out there making a decent living off videos of building and reviewing PCs and Macs. Linus Tech Tips has >11M subscribers, Dave2D has 2.7M subscribers, etc.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Have you looked at the profits of every single PC maker? It’s a low margin business. Making money off of YT videos is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
      - slantyyz 6y ago
        > Making money off of YT videos is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. You said "No one cares about PCs as a business anymore." The popularity of YT videos on new laptops, pcs, etc. seems to suggest that at a non-zero number of people (i.e., greater than "No one") still care about PCs.
        scarface74 6y ago
        If you want to be pedantic - a few Youtube videos as a business as evidence of a thriving market is about like showing a record store selling vinyl as evidence of a resurgence.
        slantyyz 6y ago
        Those channels have millions of subscribers and even more views. Maybe it's insignificant in your view, and that's fine.
        nojito 6y ago
        YouTube is tiny. Even the largest YouTube star will struggle to get noticed in public.
  - arvinsim 6y ago
    I lump together "PCs are doomed" in the same category as "Apple is doomed". Both are not even remotely true.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      PCs aren’t doomed no more than Android devices. They are just both a low margin commoditized product that compete on price.
      - ksec 6y ago
        Being a low margin business does not equate to no one cares about PC business any more.
        scarface74 6y ago
        From a business standpoint, IBM abandoned it years ago and HP has gone back and forth between whether it wants to keep their PC unit for years. Almost all of Apple’s former competitors are either dead or worth nothing. From a business standpoint, Apple’s strategy seemed to have been the right one. Apple probably makes more on computer sells than any one else and they only make up 10% of Apple’s revenue. So HN posters can complain about Apple’s strategy until the cows come home, but the market has decided it was the right one.
slantyyz 6y ago
I didn't say there were not any tradeoffs made to support those users with legacy systems. What do you define as a low end Surface line on x86? I have a Surface Pro 1 that I still use to this day. I also have a GPD Win handheld that's running an Atom processor that is surprisingly good for what it is. I also have some older Atom based stick PCs that are pretty bad (only 2GB RAM), but those are designed for signage and kiosks, for which they are... adequate.
- scarface74 6y ago
  I see you are ignoring the low cost Surface computers that are meant to compete on price with the $329 10.2 inch iPad or even the $499 iPad Air. The iPads can actually run well with 2GB of RAM. Microsoft Office is a much better experience on an iPad without a keyboard than any hardware that Apple sells.
  - slantyyz 6y ago
    The Atom-based Surfaces with the Atom x7-8700 - that's the same processor I have in my GPD-Win. It's more than usable for light users. Heck, its built-in GPU outperforms the one in my Surface Pro. While x86 Surface (not-pro) might have been "meant" to compete on price with iPads, I don't think that's how it worked out. I tend to think most of the people who will buy a low end x86 Surface want/need Windows in the first place. It's not a substitute for an iPad.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Have you compared the performance of the atom based Surface to the cheapest iPad?
      - slantyyz 6y ago
        That's an apples and oranges test, and the performance difference doesn't matter. They're for different target markets. I don't think anyone in their right mind considers a Surface as an alternative to an iPad. Just because they have similar form factors doesn't mean they're substitutes for one another. The things I run on my atom based handheld are only available on Windows.

svaha1728 6y ago

IE is not a good example. As someone who had to support legacy C++ bloat for years, I thought Apple’s move was a good one.