7 ms·

GitHub to Remove 'Master' Terminology

33 points by akrymski 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Jimmc414 6y ago
I'm honestly surprised it has taken this long. I was uncomfortable with the phrasing back in 99 when studying for my A+ exam.
- dr-detroit 6y ago
  I got my A+ in early 2000s but I had heard of master/slave channel configurations on my old 386 since I was a kid and never associated it with human bondage. This seems like its not about race its about the concept of Mastery which is abhorrent to Zoomers who only want to their celebrate mediocre peers.
- mdrachuk 6y ago
  Why?
huhtenberg 6y ago
2300 comments on /r/programming - https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/h8w36t/github_will_no_longer_use_the_term_master_as/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/h8w36t/github_...
jpxw 6y ago
Absolutely ridiculous.
- whostolemyhat 6y ago
  Why?
  - nallo 6y ago
    Its racist?
    - hanniabu 6y ago
      Maybe it's an unpopular opinion but I really don't think it is. It's a descriptive term. You'd need to also change the name of the Masters tournament and masters degree while we're at it, along with anything else that uses the term master. Master/slave client terminology on the other hand is definitely racist. Something like primary/ auxiliary would probably be better.
      - hashkb 6y ago
        Slavery isn't always racist, by the way. Sometimes it's religious or nationalist. Since we're talking about context, it's good to understand the enormous range of people who could be offended by seeing slavery references at work.
        hanniabu 6y ago
        > it's good to understand the enormous range of people who could be offended Again, possibly another unpopular opinion, but there really is a huge range of things people are offended by and there will always be people being offended by something. If you keep removing things that people are offended by then there's not much left. Granted there's a line, but I don't think this meets that threshold.
    - ithkuil 6y ago
      The "master/slave" in databases does indeed build on the racist metaphor. But is the etymology of the "master branch" the same? For example in the term "master's degree" the word master clearly retains a stronger link to the original etymology of "Magister", teacher.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - 6y ago
- slap 6y ago
  That's the point of view of the silent majority, but the mob makes the rules at the moment.
  - ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
    Who says it’s the silent majority? The loud minority are those who keep bitching and moaning imo
    - paulnechifor 6y ago
      > Who says it’s the silent majority? The loud minority are those who keep bitching and moaning imo Yeah, they're the ones bitching and moaning all of the loot out of the stores.
mcv 6y ago
I've got to admit that "main" makes a lot more sense. It's the main branch where all commits are collected before getting deployed, it's not a master that bosses all the other branches around.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- vonmoltke 6y ago
  > it's not a master that bosses all the other branches around That's not the only sense of the word "master". There are several, but the one used in git's case is that of a copy or instance from which all other copies are made.
  - mcv 6y ago
    Master copy also makes sense, I admit.
  - jeegsy 6y ago
    Oh we are going to hear a whole lot of after the fact rationalizations for this as folks pretend there was only ever one meaning of master
- jetrink 6y ago
  You're thinking of the wrong definition of master. Git's master refers to the primary copy of something from which derivative copies are made. E.g. In casting, a master is used to form new molds[1]. In audio engineering, a master tape holds the final mix of a recording[2]. (Incidentally, this is where the term remastering comes from, because you are creating a new master version.) 1. https://www.instructables.com/id/Two-Part-Silicone-Casting/ https://www.instructables.com/id/Two-Part-Silicone-Casting/ 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering_(audio) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering_(audio)
  - multiplegeorges 6y ago
    I keep seeing this stated as fact without any citation whatsoever. Here's an argument with citations that the term "master" in the git context does indeed come from the master/slave terminology: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/...
johnnyfaehell 6y ago
As long as they don't rename branches silently, I don't really care what something is called.
hashkb 6y ago
Why not "trunk"? Seems like the obvious choice to me. * it's a tree structure, trunks are the "main" branches of trees * trunk was used commonly in svn before git stormed the scene
- multiplegeorges 6y ago
  Yes, this is far more accurate terminology as well. That's something I would have thought HN would value.
  - hashkb 6y ago
    HN is selectively conservative based on, apparently, career length.
- haunter 6y ago
  Trunk also means "a person's or animal's body apart from the limbs and head" which is clearly body shaming of amputated people so don't use that. /s
fen4o 6y ago
All this 'removed' terminology is double standard. The entire name of the "git" project is offensive. From wikipedia [1] Git is a term of insult with origins in English denoting an unpleasant, silly, incompetent, annoying, senile, elderly or childish person. GitHub - hub for gits (persons). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(slang) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(slang)
- ojr 6y ago
  master is far more offensive especially in the United States
  - cgag 6y ago
    Are you offended the idea of a master key or say, mastering C++? Remastered albums?
    - ithkuil 6y ago
      Researching all that is surely somebody's Master's Theses.
      - ojr 6y ago
        more people are offended by the word master than git, I still don’t think it was a good comparison, also the connotation of Master Theses, mastering C++, remastered album is also much different.
Proziam 6y ago
I don't really care much about what the branches are named at the end of the day. However, I do find it concerning that we're so bothered by appearances that a term of art in multiple industries is being made to appear unsavory (and considering the general tone of the comments I've seen, it seems that is also manufactured dissent.) If we had a master/slave situation going on I could understand an uproar. However, it's really the 'Master' copy, which basically means 'Original' or 'Source of truth' I totally agree with Kingh32 from the reddit thread posted by another commenter below. This whole thing seems like a distraction so we can feel good about changing something without having to actually solve any hard problems or make any substantial changes.
tantalor 6y ago
Sounds risky; surely this will break a lot of systems. How is this rolled out? Are existing repos affected? Can I keep using "master" if I choose to?
pbz 6y ago
For those saying that "master" as used in git has nothing to do with master/slave: Git was made to replace bitkeeper which had (has?) the concepts of master/slave repositories: https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper/blob/master/doc/HOWTO.ask#L231-L232 https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper/blob/master/doc/H... https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/... Edit: to those down-voting ... keep hitting the down arrow, maybe reality will go away and you won't be inconvenienced by it anymore.
grzm 6y ago
From 2 days ago (138 points, over 200 comments), and yesterday (126 points, over 200 comments)
ekns 6y ago
I'd prefer it if things didn't change, including master/slave terminology (the 'master' branch doesn't even have a 'slave' in git...) Have the words themselves become bad to use? It seems that this is a USA centric view anyway with its history (and even then it seems ridiculous--why can't these things be compartmentalised as technical terms?) Slavery certainly still exists in the world, and has existed in most places at some point. Should we rename 'slavery' to something else too while we're at it? Or forget it exists and existed? Certainly certain terms become antiquated over time, like the vocabulary used in Emacs (yank/buffer/etc vs cut/window/tab/...), but master/slave doesn't seem to be there yet. I wonder if there's some way to counteract this newspeak stuff? I think it's harmful that these things happen for such frivolous reasons. Does one just have to be as loud as the minority that drives these things, to counteract it?
- D13Fd 6y ago
  I think companies are just looking for ways to help, and this is what Github came up with. I agree it's an odd reason for the change. The word "master" without "slave" has many meanings, usually but not always when one person or thing controls another. It's used for dog owners ("a dog and his master"). A person can be the "master of their own fate" or a "master of disguise." Seinfeld joked about people being "masters of their own domain." All of that said, I don't really mind the result, whatever the reason. I remember that the name struck me as odd when I first started with Git. I assumed it came from "master copy," which in media is the copy from which other copies are made. But that doesn't really fit, in my view, because the whole point of a master copy is that it doesn't change. In Git the master is always changing. The other meanings don't fit either. The "master" branch doesn't really control anything, it is controlled by the user. So calling it "master" never really made sense to me. It seems like "primary," "main," "central" or a similar word fits better.
  - me_me_me 6y ago
    > I think companies are just looking for ways to help, and this is what Github came up with. Help how exactly? This to me seems like a PR preemptive measure not to be caught in some zealous virtue signalling. > So calling it "master" never really made sense to me. It seems like "primary," "main," "central" or a similar word fits better. That was always me feeling too.
jeegsy 6y ago
I am black and I don't think I have ever given a thought to this. While the change might be well meaning, I truly resent the implications. Go out into the world and train under-privileged folks on what they would need to be github employees in future that you would hire without a second thought independent of special 'diversity' mandates. Do more of that instead of focusing on trivial bs like master/slave.
- jacknews 6y ago
  Exactly. 'master' as used in git doesn't at all imply 'slave', but instead 'definitive'. The real problem will not be solved by newspeak naming, but by actually giving genuinely equal opportunity to everyone, and perhaps more importantly, the means and environment to take up that opportunity.
philips4350 6y ago
Also relevant : http://antirez.com/news/122 http://antirez.com/news/122 Response from Redis developer regarding master-slave terminology.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
haunter 6y ago
>I had actually started with "default", and was told it might be triggering for folks in financial trouble? I don't actually have an opinion myself https://github.com/git-for-windows/git/issues/2674#issuecomment-640711525 https://github.com/git-for-windows/git/issues/2674#issuecomm... You can't make this shit up
fraktl 6y ago
This change means that sufficient nagging on popular social networks can bully entire companies into submission. Where do we draw the line between technology and being offended? The whole notion of "we are doing it to fix things" is a lie. Changing words that mean something in technology does absolutely nothing to fix the underlying problem - hatred. The cheapest way to buy yourself conscience is to sit at home and do absolutely nothing of value, but to appear as if you "care". This is precisely what changing terminology does - it buys companies conscience. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this noble cause, I just can't wait to invest yet more time to fix all the problems caused by naming change. And yes, there's us who deal with software not working when you rename a branch. Telling me it was already broken if naming change breaks it - thanks, it magically makes it go away. There's a huge number of us who work in maintenance field and we can't construct or design systems to satisfy every possible great practice out there - namely, we inherit old, crappy systems that no one wants to deal with and work on and we make them run. Changing something that worked under false pretense of doing it for greater good - while jeopardizing entire jobs because of failing software - has anyone given it any thought? Sure, someone you never saw is not offended any more by a naming convention in a field they never interacted with. But I'll be there, with many of my coworkers fixing older systems on the fly, praying nothing goes down at the wrong moment, enabling the ones who depend on that software to do their work. While I understand the motivation behind this.. let's call it movement - I can't understand that very little thought has been given to consequences and to who will suffer because of the changes.
merricksb 6y ago
Several discussions here in the past few days: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500093 (138 points/224 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23518123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23518123 (127 points/206 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23519813 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23519813 (44 points/84 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23522859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23522859 (15 points/5 comments)
craig1f 6y ago
I hate when corporations are like "how can we pretend to care without doing anything of substance". I know that some asshole with a fountain pen in a board room came up with this idea.
stunt 6y ago
I never thought adding colors to emojis were useful. They just added race to it.
ceceron 6y ago
It's just... unnecessary. BTW I think now, I know why Tom Bombadil didn't appear in the movie! Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow, Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow. None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the MASTER: His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.
ashton314 6y ago
Where is GitHub's announcement about this? (Does it exist?) I can't find anything on this and I'd like to know more about what exactly is going to go down.
thimkerbell 6y ago
Master and servant would be ok I guess.

33 points by akrymski 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

I'm honestly surprised it has taken this long. I was uncomfortable with the phrasing back in 99 when studying for my A+ exam.

dr-detroit 6y ago
I got my A+ in early 2000s but I had heard of master/slave channel configurations on my old 386 since I was a kid and never associated it with human bondage. This seems like its not about race its about the concept of Mastery which is abhorrent to Zoomers who only want to their celebrate mediocre peers.
mdrachuk 6y ago
Why?

huhtenberg 6y ago

2300 comments on /r/programming - https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/h8w36t/github_will_no_longer_use_the_term_master_as/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/h8w36t/github_...

jpxw 6y ago

Absolutely ridiculous.

whostolemyhat 6y ago
Why?
- nallo 6y ago
  Its racist?
  - hanniabu 6y ago
    Maybe it's an unpopular opinion but I really don't think it is. It's a descriptive term. You'd need to also change the name of the Masters tournament and masters degree while we're at it, along with anything else that uses the term master. Master/slave client terminology on the other hand is definitely racist. Something like primary/ auxiliary would probably be better.
    - hashkb 6y ago
      Slavery isn't always racist, by the way. Sometimes it's religious or nationalist. Since we're talking about context, it's good to understand the enormous range of people who could be offended by seeing slavery references at work.
      - hanniabu 6y ago
        > it's good to understand the enormous range of people who could be offended Again, possibly another unpopular opinion, but there really is a huge range of things people are offended by and there will always be people being offended by something. If you keep removing things that people are offended by then there's not much left. Granted there's a line, but I don't think this meets that threshold.
  - ithkuil 6y ago
    The "master/slave" in databases does indeed build on the racist metaphor. But is the etymology of the "master branch" the same? For example in the term "master's degree" the word master clearly retains a stronger link to the original etymology of "Magister", teacher.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - 6y ago
slap 6y ago
That's the point of view of the silent majority, but the mob makes the rules at the moment.
- ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
  Who says it’s the silent majority? The loud minority are those who keep bitching and moaning imo
  - paulnechifor 6y ago
    > Who says it’s the silent majority? The loud minority are those who keep bitching and moaning imo Yeah, they're the ones bitching and moaning all of the loot out of the stores.

mcv 6y ago

I've got to admit that "main" makes a lot more sense. It's the main branch where all commits are collected before getting deployed, it's not a master that bosses all the other branches around.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
vonmoltke 6y ago
> it's not a master that bosses all the other branches around That's not the only sense of the word "master". There are several, but the one used in git's case is that of a copy or instance from which all other copies are made.
- mcv 6y ago
  Master copy also makes sense, I admit.
- jeegsy 6y ago
  Oh we are going to hear a whole lot of after the fact rationalizations for this as folks pretend there was only ever one meaning of master
jetrink 6y ago
You're thinking of the wrong definition of master. Git's master refers to the primary copy of something from which derivative copies are made. E.g. In casting, a master is used to form new molds[1]. In audio engineering, a master tape holds the final mix of a recording[2]. (Incidentally, this is where the term remastering comes from, because you are creating a new master version.) 1. https://www.instructables.com/id/Two-Part-Silicone-Casting/ https://www.instructables.com/id/Two-Part-Silicone-Casting/ 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering_(audio) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering_(audio)
- multiplegeorges 6y ago
  I keep seeing this stated as fact without any citation whatsoever. Here's an argument with citations that the term "master" in the git context does indeed come from the master/slave terminology: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/...

johnnyfaehell 6y ago

As long as they don't rename branches silently, I don't really care what something is called.

hashkb 6y ago

Why not "trunk"? Seems like the obvious choice to me. * it's a tree structure, trunks are the "main" branches of trees * trunk was used commonly in svn before git stormed the scene

multiplegeorges 6y ago
Yes, this is far more accurate terminology as well. That's something I would have thought HN would value.
- hashkb 6y ago
  HN is selectively conservative based on, apparently, career length.
haunter 6y ago
Trunk also means "a person's or animal's body apart from the limbs and head" which is clearly body shaming of amputated people so don't use that. /s

fen4o 6y ago

All this 'removed' terminology is double standard. The entire name of the "git" project is offensive. From wikipedia [1] Git is a term of insult with origins in English denoting an unpleasant, silly, incompetent, annoying, senile, elderly or childish person. GitHub - hub for gits (persons). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(slang) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(slang)

ojr 6y ago
master is far more offensive especially in the United States
- cgag 6y ago
  Are you offended the idea of a master key or say, mastering C++? Remastered albums?
  - ithkuil 6y ago
    Researching all that is surely somebody's Master's Theses.
    - ojr 6y ago
      more people are offended by the word master than git, I still don’t think it was a good comparison, also the connotation of Master Theses, mastering C++, remastered album is also much different.

Proziam 6y ago

I don't really care much about what the branches are named at the end of the day. However, I do find it concerning that we're so bothered by appearances that a term of art in multiple industries is being made to appear unsavory (and considering the general tone of the comments I've seen, it seems that is also manufactured dissent.) If we had a master/slave situation going on I could understand an uproar. However, it's really the 'Master' copy, which basically means 'Original' or 'Source of truth' I totally agree with Kingh32 from the reddit thread posted by another commenter below. This whole thing seems like a distraction so we can feel good about changing something without having to actually solve any hard problems or make any substantial changes.

tantalor 6y ago

Sounds risky; surely this will break a lot of systems. How is this rolled out? Are existing repos affected? Can I keep using "master" if I choose to?

pbz 6y ago

For those saying that "master" as used in git has nothing to do with master/slave: Git was made to replace bitkeeper which had (has?) the concepts of master/slave repositories: https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper/blob/master/doc/HOWTO.ask#L231-L232 https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper/blob/master/doc/H... https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/... Edit: to those down-voting ... keep hitting the down arrow, maybe reality will go away and you won't be inconvenienced by it anymore.

grzm 6y ago

From 2 days ago (138 points, over 200 comments), and yesterday (126 points, over 200 comments)

ekns 6y ago

I'd prefer it if things didn't change, including master/slave terminology (the 'master' branch doesn't even have a 'slave' in git...) Have the words themselves become bad to use? It seems that this is a USA centric view anyway with its history (and even then it seems ridiculous--why can't these things be compartmentalised as technical terms?) Slavery certainly still exists in the world, and has existed in most places at some point. Should we rename 'slavery' to something else too while we're at it? Or forget it exists and existed? Certainly certain terms become antiquated over time, like the vocabulary used in Emacs (yank/buffer/etc vs cut/window/tab/...), but master/slave doesn't seem to be there yet. I wonder if there's some way to counteract this newspeak stuff? I think it's harmful that these things happen for such frivolous reasons. Does one just have to be as loud as the minority that drives these things, to counteract it?

D13Fd 6y ago
I think companies are just looking for ways to help, and this is what Github came up with. I agree it's an odd reason for the change. The word "master" without "slave" has many meanings, usually but not always when one person or thing controls another. It's used for dog owners ("a dog and his master"). A person can be the "master of their own fate" or a "master of disguise." Seinfeld joked about people being "masters of their own domain." All of that said, I don't really mind the result, whatever the reason. I remember that the name struck me as odd when I first started with Git. I assumed it came from "master copy," which in media is the copy from which other copies are made. But that doesn't really fit, in my view, because the whole point of a master copy is that it doesn't change. In Git the master is always changing. The other meanings don't fit either. The "master" branch doesn't really control anything, it is controlled by the user. So calling it "master" never really made sense to me. It seems like "primary," "main," "central" or a similar word fits better.
- me_me_me 6y ago
  > I think companies are just looking for ways to help, and this is what Github came up with. Help how exactly? This to me seems like a PR preemptive measure not to be caught in some zealous virtue signalling. > So calling it "master" never really made sense to me. It seems like "primary," "main," "central" or a similar word fits better. That was always me feeling too.

jeegsy 6y ago

I am black and I don't think I have ever given a thought to this. While the change might be well meaning, I truly resent the implications. Go out into the world and train under-privileged folks on what they would need to be github employees in future that you would hire without a second thought independent of special 'diversity' mandates. Do more of that instead of focusing on trivial bs like master/slave.

jacknews 6y ago
Exactly. 'master' as used in git doesn't at all imply 'slave', but instead 'definitive'. The real problem will not be solved by newspeak naming, but by actually giving genuinely equal opportunity to everyone, and perhaps more importantly, the means and environment to take up that opportunity.

philips4350 6y ago

Also relevant : http://antirez.com/news/122 http://antirez.com/news/122 Response from Redis developer regarding master-slave terminology.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

haunter 6y ago

>I had actually started with "default", and was told it might be triggering for folks in financial trouble? I don't actually have an opinion myself https://github.com/git-for-windows/git/issues/2674#issuecomment-640711525 https://github.com/git-for-windows/git/issues/2674#issuecomm... You can't make this shit up

fraktl 6y ago

This change means that sufficient nagging on popular social networks can bully entire companies into submission. Where do we draw the line between technology and being offended? The whole notion of "we are doing it to fix things" is a lie. Changing words that mean something in technology does absolutely nothing to fix the underlying problem - hatred. The cheapest way to buy yourself conscience is to sit at home and do absolutely nothing of value, but to appear as if you "care". This is precisely what changing terminology does - it buys companies conscience. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this noble cause, I just can't wait to invest yet more time to fix all the problems caused by naming change. And yes, there's us who deal with software not working when you rename a branch. Telling me it was already broken if naming change breaks it - thanks, it magically makes it go away. There's a huge number of us who work in maintenance field and we can't construct or design systems to satisfy every possible great practice out there - namely, we inherit old, crappy systems that no one wants to deal with and work on and we make them run. Changing something that worked under false pretense of doing it for greater good - while jeopardizing entire jobs because of failing software - has anyone given it any thought? Sure, someone you never saw is not offended any more by a naming convention in a field they never interacted with. But I'll be there, with many of my coworkers fixing older systems on the fly, praying nothing goes down at the wrong moment, enabling the ones who depend on that software to do their work. While I understand the motivation behind this.. let's call it movement - I can't understand that very little thought has been given to consequences and to who will suffer because of the changes.

merricksb 6y ago

Several discussions here in the past few days: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500093 (138 points/224 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23518123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23518123 (127 points/206 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23519813 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23519813 (44 points/84 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23522859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23522859 (15 points/5 comments)

craig1f 6y ago

I hate when corporations are like "how can we pretend to care without doing anything of substance". I know that some asshole with a fountain pen in a board room came up with this idea.

stunt 6y ago

I never thought adding colors to emojis were useful. They just added race to it.

ceceron 6y ago

It's just... unnecessary. BTW I think now, I know why Tom Bombadil didn't appear in the movie! Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow, Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow. None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the MASTER: His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.

ashton314 6y ago

Where is GitHub's announcement about this? (Does it exist?) I can't find anything on this and I'd like to know more about what exactly is going to go down.

thimkerbell 6y ago

Master and servant would be ok I guess.