5 ms·

I agree that there are more than 400, we know that just by the number of people getting shot. Now, how many are unjustified? That's the important question.

chrisco255 6y ago
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de... just under 1000 police involved shootings each year. Can't find the source, but of these only about 47 were un-armed and most of those involved protecting someone else from a physical attack.
- commoner 6y ago
  Those figures are for fatal police shootings, not for all police shootings. Police shootings and police brutality do not necessarily result in death.
  - bufferoverflow 6y ago
    You keep avoiding the question. How many are unjustified?
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      Ignoring the land mine that is defining "unjustified," why is somebody else obligated to answer your question?
    - danShumway 6y ago
      You're looking at a giant list of videos that people think are unjustified. You can go through and weed out videos that you think don't belong there. You can even submit pull requests to more organized compilations to remove unsubstantiated claims. Your use of "unjustified" is entirely subjective. I don't know what your specific threshold is for justified violence against peaceful protestors, and it's a waste of time to try and guess what that threshold is. It's a waste of time for us to filter the data, only for you to then point out two videos you disagree with and ask everyone to repeat the same work over and over again. All of the raw data is available to you in a list format. If you think there are errors, then fork the repo, file a pull request, or create an issue. Make your own list that demonstrates your point. https://github.com/2020PB/police-brutality/issues https://github.com/2020PB/police-brutality/issues
- nl 6y ago
  > Can't find the source, but of these only about 47 were un-armed and most of those involved protecting someone else from a physical attack. This is wrong. https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed lists 1ists at least 104 unarmed black people alone killed by police in 2015. I went though the first 20, and maybe 8 could have been accidents (one was hit by a car) or otherwise explained (2 pointed toy guns at police).
  - bufferoverflow 6y ago
    First of all, you're pulling old data. Try last year. But even then, half of the cases sound like accidents, out of 104. The remaining is pretty close to 47.
    - nl 6y ago
      I don't know where to get last years data in such detail. There are plenty of sites that count the number of killings, but this is one of the few that looks for unarmed ones. If you are aware of better or more recent stats (for example the source of this 47 number) I'd love a link. > half of the cases sound like accidents, out of 104. The remaining is pretty close to 47. I find it mind-boggling that killing 52 unarmed people by accident is somehow the best case scenario here.
    - UncleMeat 6y ago
      Why the hell would it matter if they were accidents?
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    Just pulling some of these randomly out, there's quite a few that are clearly not caused by the police: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/may/13/jail-inmate-dies-shortly-after-arrest/ https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/may/13/jail-inmate-di... > Officers arrested the man for violating a domestic violence no contact order and unlawful possession of a firearm > the man went into cardiac arrest during processing. > Correction officers began resuscitation immediately, police said, and the man was transported to the hospital while he still had a pulse. He later died at the hospital. https://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2015/07/10/Physical-restraint-cited-in-inmate-s-death/stories/201507090188 https://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2015/07/10/Physical-... > Ms. Harris declined to comment through an Allegheny County Jail Health Justice project spokeswoman, but she has said that her son took an anti-seizure medication twice daily and called her from the jail to ask for help getting health care workers there to give him the medication > He died of acute peritonitis due to colon perforation, and the death was ruled natural. > Our records indicate that within ten minutes of Mr. Smart’s arrival at medical intake, our staff ordered the medications he said he needed, and he received those medications as prescribed. During an emergency event later that evening, our records show that our staff administered additional treatment to Mr. Smart and that he responded to the medical care provided. This is an extremely misleading website and not a reliable source.
esperent 6y ago
An important question, and a simple answer: all cases of police misconduct and brutality are unjustified.
- bufferoverflow 6y ago
  That's blatantly false. How do you stop someone pointing a gun at the police officer without brutality? How do you stop someone attacking a police officer? How do you stop someone going for their gun? How do you stop someone going around shooting innocent people? etc, etc, etc.
  - esperent 6y ago
    Is there a term for the type of response that, instead of furthering the discussion, just tries to overwhelm you with questions?
    - bilegeek 6y ago
      Gish gallop[1]? Although that includes arguments, not just questions. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
      - commoner 6y ago
        "Gish gallop" is the correct term, but "buffer overflow" would also work in this case.
    - bufferoverflow 6y ago
      So you can't answer 4 simple questions. So you pretend to be overwhelmed. Got it.
      - esperent 6y ago
        The answer to your questions is that those are not examples of police brutality, so long as the police respond with reasonable force. Along with reading your other comments here, I viewed these 4 questions as a bad faith attempt at steering the conversation off topic. When people complain about police brutality, we are not talking about the times when police have to legitimately defend themselves or disarm someone. This thread is specifically about the hundreds of clearly documented examples of unprovoked violence by police in the US over the last few weeks, many of them against journalists, elderly people, kneeling protestors and so on. Please engage with that and don't try to change the subject again.
vmception 6y ago
> unjustified Every municipality has different rules for officer's conduct. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (Part of the Federal US Department of Justice), there are 17,985 US police agencies, of which 15,400 departments govern the 39,044 distinct local governments and municipalities. These are further divided into autonomous administrative districts often referred to as precincts. The rules for officer misconduct change in each municipality as reactions to prior conduct or complaints. The rules are based on edicts from the state, as well as interpretations of those edicts by the local police department which create internal policy. The level of compliance with creating and updating internal policies varies. No civilian is able to know or predict the various rationale an officer may use or is able to use to behave any particular way. Civilians learn after they have had a bad encounter with an officer, or are in jail or dead. Juries learn on the spot with prosecutor instructions, sometimes those instructions themselves are misleading or incorrect. The public does not necessarily ever learn what the standards were, and the media learns after the fact and only has a patchwork of "isolated incidents" that occurred in frankly different governing systems. When put together, this fuels discontent with police as an amorphous entity, an interpretation which fuels a growing divide of non-solutions. So the term "justified" and "unjustified" means nothing because it is different and changing everywhere and is a term that only matches your pre-existing worldview, or your predilection to appeal to authority in counties and states you have never set foot in, let alone participate in.
- hef19898 6y ago
  The number of distinct police forces might already be a problem in itself. Germany has 16 state level and one federal, plus customs (not legally a police force with a lot less jurisdiction) France has two, Police national and Gendamerie. Obviously a slight oversimplification when counting stuff like the BKA / LKA (maybe the German equivalent to the FBI?) as seperate bodies. But roughly across Europe you have two levels,local and federal. Both are reporting, one way or the other, to the respective Ministeries of the Interior. Quite adifference compared to the US, where the highest authority can be a mayor. or none, if I understood the thing with local Sherrifs correctly.

chrisco255 6y ago

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de... just under 1000 police involved shootings each year. Can't find the source, but of these only about 47 were un-armed and most of those involved protecting someone else from a physical attack.

commoner 6y ago
Those figures are for fatal police shootings, not for all police shootings. Police shootings and police brutality do not necessarily result in death.
- bufferoverflow 6y ago
  You keep avoiding the question. How many are unjustified?
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    Ignoring the land mine that is defining "unjustified," why is somebody else obligated to answer your question?
  - danShumway 6y ago
    You're looking at a giant list of videos that people think are unjustified. You can go through and weed out videos that you think don't belong there. You can even submit pull requests to more organized compilations to remove unsubstantiated claims. Your use of "unjustified" is entirely subjective. I don't know what your specific threshold is for justified violence against peaceful protestors, and it's a waste of time to try and guess what that threshold is. It's a waste of time for us to filter the data, only for you to then point out two videos you disagree with and ask everyone to repeat the same work over and over again. All of the raw data is available to you in a list format. If you think there are errors, then fork the repo, file a pull request, or create an issue. Make your own list that demonstrates your point. https://github.com/2020PB/police-brutality/issues https://github.com/2020PB/police-brutality/issues
nl 6y ago
> Can't find the source, but of these only about 47 were un-armed and most of those involved protecting someone else from a physical attack. This is wrong. https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed lists 1ists at least 104 unarmed black people alone killed by police in 2015. I went though the first 20, and maybe 8 could have been accidents (one was hit by a car) or otherwise explained (2 pointed toy guns at police).
- bufferoverflow 6y ago
  First of all, you're pulling old data. Try last year. But even then, half of the cases sound like accidents, out of 104. The remaining is pretty close to 47.
  - nl 6y ago
    I don't know where to get last years data in such detail. There are plenty of sites that count the number of killings, but this is one of the few that looks for unarmed ones. If you are aware of better or more recent stats (for example the source of this 47 number) I'd love a link. > half of the cases sound like accidents, out of 104. The remaining is pretty close to 47. I find it mind-boggling that killing 52 unarmed people by accident is somehow the best case scenario here.
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    Why the hell would it matter if they were accidents?
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Just pulling some of these randomly out, there's quite a few that are clearly not caused by the police: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/may/13/jail-inmate-dies-shortly-after-arrest/ https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/may/13/jail-inmate-di... > Officers arrested the man for violating a domestic violence no contact order and unlawful possession of a firearm > the man went into cardiac arrest during processing. > Correction officers began resuscitation immediately, police said, and the man was transported to the hospital while he still had a pulse. He later died at the hospital. https://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2015/07/10/Physical-restraint-cited-in-inmate-s-death/stories/201507090188 https://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2015/07/10/Physical-... > Ms. Harris declined to comment through an Allegheny County Jail Health Justice project spokeswoman, but she has said that her son took an anti-seizure medication twice daily and called her from the jail to ask for help getting health care workers there to give him the medication > He died of acute peritonitis due to colon perforation, and the death was ruled natural. > Our records indicate that within ten minutes of Mr. Smart’s arrival at medical intake, our staff ordered the medications he said he needed, and he received those medications as prescribed. During an emergency event later that evening, our records show that our staff administered additional treatment to Mr. Smart and that he responded to the medical care provided. This is an extremely misleading website and not a reliable source.

esperent 6y ago

An important question, and a simple answer: all cases of police misconduct and brutality are unjustified.

bufferoverflow 6y ago
That's blatantly false. How do you stop someone pointing a gun at the police officer without brutality? How do you stop someone attacking a police officer? How do you stop someone going for their gun? How do you stop someone going around shooting innocent people? etc, etc, etc.
- esperent 6y ago
  Is there a term for the type of response that, instead of furthering the discussion, just tries to overwhelm you with questions?
  - bilegeek 6y ago
    Gish gallop[1]? Although that includes arguments, not just questions. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
    - commoner 6y ago
      "Gish gallop" is the correct term, but "buffer overflow" would also work in this case.
  - bufferoverflow 6y ago
    So you can't answer 4 simple questions. So you pretend to be overwhelmed. Got it.
    - esperent 6y ago
      The answer to your questions is that those are not examples of police brutality, so long as the police respond with reasonable force. Along with reading your other comments here, I viewed these 4 questions as a bad faith attempt at steering the conversation off topic. When people complain about police brutality, we are not talking about the times when police have to legitimately defend themselves or disarm someone. This thread is specifically about the hundreds of clearly documented examples of unprovoked violence by police in the US over the last few weeks, many of them against journalists, elderly people, kneeling protestors and so on. Please engage with that and don't try to change the subject again.

vmception 6y ago

> unjustified Every municipality has different rules for officer's conduct. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (Part of the Federal US Department of Justice), there are 17,985 US police agencies, of which 15,400 departments govern the 39,044 distinct local governments and municipalities. These are further divided into autonomous administrative districts often referred to as precincts. The rules for officer misconduct change in each municipality as reactions to prior conduct or complaints. The rules are based on edicts from the state, as well as interpretations of those edicts by the local police department which create internal policy. The level of compliance with creating and updating internal policies varies. No civilian is able to know or predict the various rationale an officer may use or is able to use to behave any particular way. Civilians learn after they have had a bad encounter with an officer, or are in jail or dead. Juries learn on the spot with prosecutor instructions, sometimes those instructions themselves are misleading or incorrect. The public does not necessarily ever learn what the standards were, and the media learns after the fact and only has a patchwork of "isolated incidents" that occurred in frankly different governing systems. When put together, this fuels discontent with police as an amorphous entity, an interpretation which fuels a growing divide of non-solutions. So the term "justified" and "unjustified" means nothing because it is different and changing everywhere and is a term that only matches your pre-existing worldview, or your predilection to appeal to authority in counties and states you have never set foot in, let alone participate in.

hef19898 6y ago
The number of distinct police forces might already be a problem in itself. Germany has 16 state level and one federal, plus customs (not legally a police force with a lot less jurisdiction) France has two, Police national and Gendamerie. Obviously a slight oversimplification when counting stuff like the BKA / LKA (maybe the German equivalent to the FBI?) as seperate bodies. But roughly across Europe you have two levels,local and federal. Both are reporting, one way or the other, to the respective Ministeries of the Interior. Quite adifference compared to the US, where the highest authority can be a mayor. or none, if I understood the thing with local Sherrifs correctly.