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This seems to me to miss the point. I genuinely doubt that many people are offended at master/slave terminology. I personally am not offended, yet I would pref

This seems to me to miss the point. I genuinely doubt that many people are offended at master/slave terminology. I personally am not offended, yet I would prefer if we did not use such terms. Why? Because words matter, and I recognize that where we decide to move terms into every day parlance has an impact on how people think. This after all is the basis of some groups trying to “reclaim” a word by trivializing it’s usage. As a thought experiment imagine if we got into the habit of naming services or concepts after the Holocaust. How do you think that the casual, daily reference to that event in a different context would affect our perceptions of the 20th century genocide? Would it make us treat the Holocaust more casually? Now imagine how you’d feel if German companies started using that term casually. Kind of icky, right? That being said, I don’t think that anyone who doesn’t want to go to the trouble to replace every instance of these words going forward is a racist, nor should we tolerate such abuse from a crowd that’s nominally supposed to be doing the right thing. We can advocate for well-meaning changes without being jerks, I hope. Personally I plan on just using new terms going forward, but I won’t go back and rename every single thing I’ve ever written. Also, master/slave really isn’t racially independent in America. Slavery is an institution that has cropped up in many places at many times; but here in America slavery refers specifically to the form of chattel slavery that occurred here, and therefore does carry more than a hint of racial overtones.

artistsvoid 6y ago
Thank you for this well written non-inflammatory response, I really appreciate it. I can see your point, but I guess we just have a different idea 'how high' sensitivity should be. Obviously you don't name something in programming 'pimp' / 'bitch', or even more extreme I suppose: 'white_guard' / 'n_____', that's obviously childish, unwarranted, and just for the sake of provocation. Like I've said though I think of 'master/slave' as perfectly fine descriptions regarding their function and I have always thought of them as racially neutral terms, and if you want to change long-standing naming convention there should be a case for it. And I just think it isn't there. By the way: For the very first time in my life, a few days ago, have I ever thought of 'whitelist'/'blacklist' in terms of skin color. white vs black, bright vs dark, , "shining bright light" vs "tempted by darkness", etc, it was almost a Eureka moment: "How can people think of skin color there?" That makes me think that people are spurted into activism, blindly 'looking for problems', and once you start looking it's easy to see it everywhere. We are pattern seeking animals - if I believe in conspiracy theories, I will over evaluate whatever confirms my beliefs - and I honestly think the same happens in cases of people who take social justice too far (thinking of 'master/slave' as inappropriate naming conventions in programming after decades of use) ; (and I hope it's unnecessary to add: I am not denying the reality of racism ; just trying to doubt the usefulness and legitimacy of taking the sensitivity into far off areas and to a degree that is unwarranted) I guess I am just emotionally detached from this as can be, as someone who doesn't follow daily news, and is not an American. It's weird for me to accept: 'why can't I use master/slave anymore?' 'because a black man was murdered by police in a country across the Atlantic, and now they are looking to prune any mention of slavery from everywhere they can find it' 'what?' You can't clean up the language to a point of where 'no one' is offended. Master/Slave seems like such a low level of 'potential for controversy' to me, that I am really worried about 'if that one isn't acceptable after decades of use anymore, what next'
- mplanchard 6y ago
  So what’s interesting to me here is that you note that some names are inappropriate to use, because of the cultural context surrounding them: > Obviously you don't name something in programming 'pimp' / 'bitch', or even more extreme I suppose: 'white_guard' / 'n_____', that's obviously childish, unwarranted, and just for the sake of provocation. These are all words with literal meanings that could theoretically apply to some aspect of some system. But you admit that these words are inappropriate to use, presumably because of the additional connotation and cultural context that comes along with them. Is it so difficult to imagine that other words, words that you do not personally have the cultural context to find offensive, could feel the same way to other people who have lived through different experiences? I am glad that you realized that it’s theoretically possible that the bias in our language of associating blackness with evil or badness might be something that affects people. I think it’s easy to say something like, “oh it’s never been about skin color, don’t be so touchy” when you’ve never had that language constantly around you while society is also actively telling you that you are worth less because you are black. But if you’re a black child being bullied in school for your skin color, that language might take on shades of meaning that seem much more sinister.
  - artistsvoid 6y ago
    It's not at all difficult to assume that something is offensive to someone, but not to me. It's extremely easy that for any different person, different phrases are considered offensive. But the solution of 'let's create a world where nothing is offensive anymore' seems ludicrous. I don't think there is a racial bias in associating blackness w/ evil or 'whiteness' with good, I rather think it has to do with night/darkness vs day/light. Do you think 'red' as a widely used 'warning light' somehow relates to 'native Americans'? Like I've said, I never thought of it in terms of race ; once you start actively believing that biases are EVERYWHERE, you will see them everywhere, automatically. And I think for one, that this is an extremely obsessive way to live, and also a battle one can never ever win, and the question 'where does your quest for justice stop', is warranted. I always thought there was a 'common sense' approach, pruning any mention of 'slave' as terminology in programming / system administration after decades of use for me seems to be extremely far away from it. Whatever happens w/ naming conventions here, I will eventually adapt. But I seriously fear that this quest for justice, especially in 'language' goes far beyond common sense and is about actively looking for problems, that are none until identified.
deleted 6y ago
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artistsvoid 6y ago

Thank you for this well written non-inflammatory response, I really appreciate it. I can see your point, but I guess we just have a different idea 'how high' sensitivity should be. Obviously you don't name something in programming 'pimp' / 'bitch', or even more extreme I suppose: 'white_guard' / 'n_____', that's obviously childish, unwarranted, and just for the sake of provocation. Like I've said though I think of 'master/slave' as perfectly fine descriptions regarding their function and I have always thought of them as racially neutral terms, and if you want to change long-standing naming convention there should be a case for it. And I just think it isn't there. By the way: For the very first time in my life, a few days ago, have I ever thought of 'whitelist'/'blacklist' in terms of skin color. white vs black, bright vs dark, , "shining bright light" vs "tempted by darkness", etc, it was almost a Eureka moment: "How can people think of skin color there?" That makes me think that people are spurted into activism, blindly 'looking for problems', and once you start looking it's easy to see it everywhere. We are pattern seeking animals - if I believe in conspiracy theories, I will over evaluate whatever confirms my beliefs - and I honestly think the same happens in cases of people who take social justice too far (thinking of 'master/slave' as inappropriate naming conventions in programming after decades of use) ; (and I hope it's unnecessary to add: I am not denying the reality of racism ; just trying to doubt the usefulness and legitimacy of taking the sensitivity into far off areas and to a degree that is unwarranted) I guess I am just emotionally detached from this as can be, as someone who doesn't follow daily news, and is not an American. It's weird for me to accept: 'why can't I use master/slave anymore?' 'because a black man was murdered by police in a country across the Atlantic, and now they are looking to prune any mention of slavery from everywhere they can find it' 'what?' You can't clean up the language to a point of where 'no one' is offended. Master/Slave seems like such a low level of 'potential for controversy' to me, that I am really worried about 'if that one isn't acceptable after decades of use anymore, what next'

mplanchard 6y ago
So what’s interesting to me here is that you note that some names are inappropriate to use, because of the cultural context surrounding them: > Obviously you don't name something in programming 'pimp' / 'bitch', or even more extreme I suppose: 'white_guard' / 'n_____', that's obviously childish, unwarranted, and just for the sake of provocation. These are all words with literal meanings that could theoretically apply to some aspect of some system. But you admit that these words are inappropriate to use, presumably because of the additional connotation and cultural context that comes along with them. Is it so difficult to imagine that other words, words that you do not personally have the cultural context to find offensive, could feel the same way to other people who have lived through different experiences? I am glad that you realized that it’s theoretically possible that the bias in our language of associating blackness with evil or badness might be something that affects people. I think it’s easy to say something like, “oh it’s never been about skin color, don’t be so touchy” when you’ve never had that language constantly around you while society is also actively telling you that you are worth less because you are black. But if you’re a black child being bullied in school for your skin color, that language might take on shades of meaning that seem much more sinister.
- artistsvoid 6y ago
  It's not at all difficult to assume that something is offensive to someone, but not to me. It's extremely easy that for any different person, different phrases are considered offensive. But the solution of 'let's create a world where nothing is offensive anymore' seems ludicrous. I don't think there is a racial bias in associating blackness w/ evil or 'whiteness' with good, I rather think it has to do with night/darkness vs day/light. Do you think 'red' as a widely used 'warning light' somehow relates to 'native Americans'? Like I've said, I never thought of it in terms of race ; once you start actively believing that biases are EVERYWHERE, you will see them everywhere, automatically. And I think for one, that this is an extremely obsessive way to live, and also a battle one can never ever win, and the question 'where does your quest for justice stop', is warranted. I always thought there was a 'common sense' approach, pruning any mention of 'slave' as terminology in programming / system administration after decades of use for me seems to be extremely far away from it. Whatever happens w/ naming conventions here, I will eventually adapt. But I seriously fear that this quest for justice, especially in 'language' goes far beyond common sense and is about actively looking for problems, that are none until identified.

deleted 6y ago

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