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I will try to avoid controversy here and word this carefully: I can't help but think that something is wrong in the minds of people who take offense at somethin

I will try to avoid controversy here and word this carefully: I can't help but think that something is wrong in the minds of people who take offense at something like this. If in the context of programming and system administration, the term master/slave is 'offensive' and makes you think of racism, and one group of people being oppressed by another, your mind seems to make some completely different connections from mine. Maybe I am not fine-tuned into 'spotting' such things, which is the argument I would expect; but maybe some just have developed a sensitivity far beyond any reasonable amount in taking offense, which is my suspicion. How about we talk about meaningful ways to stop racism, which we can all agree is bad and unwarranted, jumping into action blindly might feel like you are doing something, but what exactly is this doing? I am very annoyed by such blindly executed and in my opinion unwarranted activism, and as soon as one speaks out against, one has to hide from the incoming attacks. So I guess HR departments have to check naming conventions in programs now for misogyny / politically non-correct / possibly racist terminology before release? By the way: I actually always thought of master / slave as completely racially independent terminology in general? If in a book a white man were enslaved by some Asian tribe, how would master/slave terminology be non-correct in describing the participants?

kgraves 6y ago
It's not 'activism', not even 'slacktivism', it's all about control and bullying, even over the most minute of 'spotting' such things.
- geofft 6y ago
  This pull request is being sent in by one of the people who originally developed ZFS at Sun. Who is being bullied here?
vijaybritto 6y ago
This is such a terrible take! > So I guess HR departments have to check naming conventions in programs now for misogyny / politically non-correct / possibly racist terminology before release? Of course. Why is that a question? >If in a book a white man were enslaved by some Asian tribe, how would master/slave terminology be non-correct in describing the participants? Edit: xxxYes absolutelyxxx The terminology would be correct. But that's fiction. This is real life with real consequences. The reason it's being removed here is because it's ignorant and disrespectful.
- qeternity 6y ago
  > > If in a book a white man were enslaved by some Asian tribe, how would master/slave terminology be non-correct in describing the participants? > Yes absolutely Ehh what?
ashtonkem 6y ago
This seems to me to miss the point. I genuinely doubt that many people are offended at master/slave terminology. I personally am not offended, yet I would prefer if we did not use such terms. Why? Because words matter, and I recognize that where we decide to move terms into every day parlance has an impact on how people think. This after all is the basis of some groups trying to “reclaim” a word by trivializing it’s usage. As a thought experiment imagine if we got into the habit of naming services or concepts after the Holocaust. How do you think that the casual, daily reference to that event in a different context would affect our perceptions of the 20th century genocide? Would it make us treat the Holocaust more casually? Now imagine how you’d feel if German companies started using that term casually. Kind of icky, right? That being said, I don’t think that anyone who doesn’t want to go to the trouble to replace every instance of these words going forward is a racist, nor should we tolerate such abuse from a crowd that’s nominally supposed to be doing the right thing. We can advocate for well-meaning changes without being jerks, I hope. Personally I plan on just using new terms going forward, but I won’t go back and rename every single thing I’ve ever written. Also, master/slave really isn’t racially independent in America. Slavery is an institution that has cropped up in many places at many times; but here in America slavery refers specifically to the form of chattel slavery that occurred here, and therefore does carry more than a hint of racial overtones.
- artistsvoid 6y ago
  Thank you for this well written non-inflammatory response, I really appreciate it. I can see your point, but I guess we just have a different idea 'how high' sensitivity should be. Obviously you don't name something in programming 'pimp' / 'bitch', or even more extreme I suppose: 'white_guard' / 'n_____', that's obviously childish, unwarranted, and just for the sake of provocation. Like I've said though I think of 'master/slave' as perfectly fine descriptions regarding their function and I have always thought of them as racially neutral terms, and if you want to change long-standing naming convention there should be a case for it. And I just think it isn't there. By the way: For the very first time in my life, a few days ago, have I ever thought of 'whitelist'/'blacklist' in terms of skin color. white vs black, bright vs dark, , "shining bright light" vs "tempted by darkness", etc, it was almost a Eureka moment: "How can people think of skin color there?" That makes me think that people are spurted into activism, blindly 'looking for problems', and once you start looking it's easy to see it everywhere. We are pattern seeking animals - if I believe in conspiracy theories, I will over evaluate whatever confirms my beliefs - and I honestly think the same happens in cases of people who take social justice too far (thinking of 'master/slave' as inappropriate naming conventions in programming after decades of use) ; (and I hope it's unnecessary to add: I am not denying the reality of racism ; just trying to doubt the usefulness and legitimacy of taking the sensitivity into far off areas and to a degree that is unwarranted) I guess I am just emotionally detached from this as can be, as someone who doesn't follow daily news, and is not an American. It's weird for me to accept: 'why can't I use master/slave anymore?' 'because a black man was murdered by police in a country across the Atlantic, and now they are looking to prune any mention of slavery from everywhere they can find it' 'what?' You can't clean up the language to a point of where 'no one' is offended. Master/Slave seems like such a low level of 'potential for controversy' to me, that I am really worried about 'if that one isn't acceptable after decades of use anymore, what next'
there_the_and 6y ago
Obviously, all of you bitching and moaning about your precious master / slave terminology are the most triggered. If you can't handle a name change, then software is absolutely not the career for you.
- artistsvoid 6y ago
  Look, I think if you propose a change to a long-standing naming convention it's you who should make the case, and I find the case to be weak. I don't think calling it 'bitching and moaning' is warranted. And if all code ends up not using that terminology I will adapt and move on, not sure what else you think I would be doing.
- rambojazz 6y ago
  wtf? You people created a problem that didn't exist before, and now you're attacking people for not caring about a non-problem? The origin of the work "master" is not "oppression" and "slavery", it's simply "control" or "authority". If you don't understand this, and if you think that others should care because you are offended by a non-existent problem that you have created, then software is absolutely not the career for you. What comes next after "master"? Binary? Admin? Terminal? Kill? Server? Abort?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

kgraves 6y ago

It's not 'activism', not even 'slacktivism', it's all about control and bullying, even over the most minute of 'spotting' such things.

geofft 6y ago
This pull request is being sent in by one of the people who originally developed ZFS at Sun. Who is being bullied here?

vijaybritto 6y ago

This is such a terrible take! > So I guess HR departments have to check naming conventions in programs now for misogyny / politically non-correct / possibly racist terminology before release? Of course. Why is that a question? >If in a book a white man were enslaved by some Asian tribe, how would master/slave terminology be non-correct in describing the participants? Edit: xxxYes absolutelyxxx The terminology would be correct. But that's fiction. This is real life with real consequences. The reason it's being removed here is because it's ignorant and disrespectful.

qeternity 6y ago
> > If in a book a white man were enslaved by some Asian tribe, how would master/slave terminology be non-correct in describing the participants? > Yes absolutely Ehh what?

ashtonkem 6y ago

This seems to me to miss the point. I genuinely doubt that many people are offended at master/slave terminology. I personally am not offended, yet I would prefer if we did not use such terms. Why? Because words matter, and I recognize that where we decide to move terms into every day parlance has an impact on how people think. This after all is the basis of some groups trying to “reclaim” a word by trivializing it’s usage. As a thought experiment imagine if we got into the habit of naming services or concepts after the Holocaust. How do you think that the casual, daily reference to that event in a different context would affect our perceptions of the 20th century genocide? Would it make us treat the Holocaust more casually? Now imagine how you’d feel if German companies started using that term casually. Kind of icky, right? That being said, I don’t think that anyone who doesn’t want to go to the trouble to replace every instance of these words going forward is a racist, nor should we tolerate such abuse from a crowd that’s nominally supposed to be doing the right thing. We can advocate for well-meaning changes without being jerks, I hope. Personally I plan on just using new terms going forward, but I won’t go back and rename every single thing I’ve ever written. Also, master/slave really isn’t racially independent in America. Slavery is an institution that has cropped up in many places at many times; but here in America slavery refers specifically to the form of chattel slavery that occurred here, and therefore does carry more than a hint of racial overtones.

artistsvoid 6y ago
Thank you for this well written non-inflammatory response, I really appreciate it. I can see your point, but I guess we just have a different idea 'how high' sensitivity should be. Obviously you don't name something in programming 'pimp' / 'bitch', or even more extreme I suppose: 'white_guard' / 'n_____', that's obviously childish, unwarranted, and just for the sake of provocation. Like I've said though I think of 'master/slave' as perfectly fine descriptions regarding their function and I have always thought of them as racially neutral terms, and if you want to change long-standing naming convention there should be a case for it. And I just think it isn't there. By the way: For the very first time in my life, a few days ago, have I ever thought of 'whitelist'/'blacklist' in terms of skin color. white vs black, bright vs dark, , "shining bright light" vs "tempted by darkness", etc, it was almost a Eureka moment: "How can people think of skin color there?" That makes me think that people are spurted into activism, blindly 'looking for problems', and once you start looking it's easy to see it everywhere. We are pattern seeking animals - if I believe in conspiracy theories, I will over evaluate whatever confirms my beliefs - and I honestly think the same happens in cases of people who take social justice too far (thinking of 'master/slave' as inappropriate naming conventions in programming after decades of use) ; (and I hope it's unnecessary to add: I am not denying the reality of racism ; just trying to doubt the usefulness and legitimacy of taking the sensitivity into far off areas and to a degree that is unwarranted) I guess I am just emotionally detached from this as can be, as someone who doesn't follow daily news, and is not an American. It's weird for me to accept: 'why can't I use master/slave anymore?' 'because a black man was murdered by police in a country across the Atlantic, and now they are looking to prune any mention of slavery from everywhere they can find it' 'what?' You can't clean up the language to a point of where 'no one' is offended. Master/Slave seems like such a low level of 'potential for controversy' to me, that I am really worried about 'if that one isn't acceptable after decades of use anymore, what next'

there_the_and 6y ago

Obviously, all of you bitching and moaning about your precious master / slave terminology are the most triggered. If you can't handle a name change, then software is absolutely not the career for you.

artistsvoid 6y ago
Look, I think if you propose a change to a long-standing naming convention it's you who should make the case, and I find the case to be weak. I don't think calling it 'bitching and moaning' is warranted. And if all code ends up not using that terminology I will adapt and move on, not sure what else you think I would be doing.
rambojazz 6y ago
wtf? You people created a problem that didn't exist before, and now you're attacking people for not caring about a non-problem? The origin of the work "master" is not "oppression" and "slavery", it's simply "control" or "authority". If you don't understand this, and if you think that others should care because you are offended by a non-existent problem that you have created, then software is absolutely not the career for you. What comes next after "master"? Binary? Admin? Terminal? Kill? Server? Abort?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]